Is anyone here a fish disease expert?? HElP!!

prickles

Premium Member
So I am losing fish like crazy. I originally put all my fish in my new tank after about 3 weeks of copper. Yet after about 2 months, I had ich. I think it might have been from the live rock. I therefore got lazy with my quarantining since I thought that ich was the only thing I had to worry about so I basically just dropped fish in when I got them.

I had two blue spot jawfish that were constantly attacking each other, so I added 4 more hoping to pair them off. The aggression stopped but three of them never ate. A few days later my tangs were close to dying from ich, so I tore down the tank and put everyone in 3 hospital tanks.

When I pulled out the blue spots, I noticed 3 of them had what looked like cuts to me, that were silvery/white on their sides. I put them in the hospital tank and they died within 2 days. About the time they died, two more of my blue spots had this white stuff on them and it grew rapidly and killed them within a day. A day later I lost my last blue spot. They died in reverse order of acquisition, so my oldest two died after the new 4.

For several days, all was well. I started the copper treatment on the tang hospital tank. The hippo then started showing signs of what I would call holes, in addition to ich. I added furan 2 to the tang tank.
hippo.jpg


The powder blue has no apparent ich, but now has holes in it with white stuff on them. The holes appear to be growing. The hippo died last night.
powderblue2.jpg

In the 2nd pic you can also see some black spots on the white chin that aren't on the other side. The white stuff looks fuzzy.
powderblue.jpg



In the other tank, (the one that had the blue spots that died)there had been no deaths for a week or so, but one clown wasn't eating and hanging out at the bottom. I added metro and that seemed to make him better for the duration of the treatment. I then repeated the metro and started (1/2 dose) of coppersafe. Next day, I had a dead mandarin, helfrichi, and bicolor. The foxface now has some of these holes appearing.

So in summary, I have a disease that is killing fish very quickly from onset, a few days. It does not appear to be affected by copper, nor furan 2, nor metronidazole. I believe the ich is 2ndary and just there for annoyance at this point.

What do I have??? It waits about a week and then shows signs in a fish, then kills them in 2-3 days!!
 
Uronema or septacimia but I can't tell if there are red areas on the sores, you running the ozone I loaned you? My guess is too much bacteria in the H2O. FW dip them as well see if it is simply a secondary from low oxygen levels due to ich in the gills.
 
Well for one thing quit buying fish if you know you have a parasite problem. It's likely you will continue to see secondary bacterial/viral infections with a severe ich infestation.

It also sounds like your using a hodge podge of medications and dosing them indiscriminately which may be why your seeing signs of hole in the head.

prickles it seems like you got some bad advice by the way your handling things.

Who recommended you add six jawfish to your tank? What size tank is it?

prickles if you PM me I would be more than happy to discuss this with you on the phone. Hell I'll even stop by for a visit if you want. There is just too much to cover in a reasonable amount of time by posting.

BTW I wouldn't use ozone without a redox controller.
 
Copper is for the ich and Furan is for the bacterials, how would that cause hole in the head which i dont think he has, I have used this combo tons of times on incoming fish based on what diseases we see on them. The skin disease is more likely from the hospital tanks cycle. The one reason I don't like medicating fish out of tank is it usually leads to loss from stress of capture and then cycle issues on the hospital tank itself. It seems he has a very bad strain of fungal or bacterial disease that has been aggrivated by how new the hospital tank is cycling the water params seem ok but it is not a mature system. I would think adding the ozone to keep down bacterial levels and sterilize the water, that might help. I would persoanlly FW dip all fish as well to ensure they are fine in the gills. The bacteria likely came in on one of the jawfish but the aggrivation seemed to be transport to the hospital tank. The other Jawfish left in the store were all good with just copper and a stable system. If it is fungal he might have to add Methaline Blue or Malichite Green to the mix which would kill fungals, but i am not sure that is an issue. Best to check with the good pharmacists at fishyfarmacy but he will need better pics I would think.
 
Alex repost this to the fish disease forum as well. Also I will run it by Olin but I am pretty sure he will want a bacteria count on the hospital tank water.......
 
Hi Prickles, sorry to hear about your troubles. Hard to tell without a skin scraping, but does look like ich followed up with a secondary bacterial infection. Fungal would seem unlikely. Your treatment seems good, although I have seen a lot of strains in the aquarium trade that are resistant to furan. If they don't seem to be responding, might also try Cephalexin or trimothoprim sulfamethoxazole. The latter particularly has saved many fish for me. I have some if you need it. A freshwater or formalin dip might be a good idea as well to remove any attached protozoans or at least lessen the parasite load. If you are holding them in full strength seawater, running the hospital tank at 25ppt might be good - it won't inhibit parasite reproduction, but these parasites can damage gill function and make it difficult for the fish to osmoregulate. Lowering the salt concentration can reduce this metabolic load a bit. Let me know if you need more detail, I have to run to my lab, but can give more thorough help this afternoon.
 
I really do wish I knew what I was doing here. I have asked this question of everyone I can think of and gotten no suggestions other than the ones I have tried. I tried reef discussion, fish disease, and now local. In addition I have spent about 5 hours on the internet trying to figure this out, calling DFS, Marine Depot, LFS's, reading the Merck Vet manual, checking medication manufacturers web pages etc. I have really gotten nothing useful to help me diagnose this problem so far. The only fish with obvious problems is the powder blue right now. he really hasn't changed in looks since that picture. He still has a couple of holes in him covered with white fuzzy stuff. I FW dipped him yesterday for about 10 minutes and the white fuzzy stuff was reduced. However, today he is back to where he was before.

Last night was the last furan treatment for a full cycle, and today I am supposed to do a 25% water change per directions. I have been maintaining the coppersafe and there are no visible signs of ich bothering the fish right now.

So my thought is that there are only so many categories of things that could be wrong.
1)parasite---treatment copper
2)bacterial infection---treatment antibiotics
3)fungal infection--- treatment methylene blue or malachite green
4)other parasites---treatment formalin

Based on what I have read, the most common diseases should be cured by copper and antibiotics which is why I started there. My next plan of action was to go with formalin (which I can't find locally.) I ordered some, but without another suggestion, I plan to try rid ich+. The reason I say this is that it is a combination of formalin and malachite green. While not what I want to do, it sounds like it might help. The formalin won't likely arrive until Friday or Monday, so nothing else to try in the meantime as my current treatment regimen seems to be useless.

thoughts, warnings, would be appreciated. I also would love to know about mixing meds. I know they all say "dont mix" but then some of the sources I have tried say I can mix them. What I specifically would like to know in the short run is can I mix rid ich + with coppersafe in the hospital tank. I know I can do the formalin part with chelated copper, but I don't know about the malachite green. I was told by ThatPetPlace that I can do it, but I am not confident.

It's been about 3 days since I lost any fish, so based on the history of this disease I'm due to lose another few today or tomorrow.

Help!!
 
Formalin 3 got hard to get when they restricted it, local suppliers still don't carry it as far as I know I will inquire this week.
 
Course there is one miracle drug that fixes everything on coral and fish. Ohh how I wish it did not cause bone cancer in humans...........Seen it take mushrooms from slime to alive once, crazy stuff. Very expensive and you need a license to obtain it :)
 
I ordered some formalin from thatpetplace. It should arrive late week or early next week. As for malachite's toxicity, Kordon, I believe states that the reason it mixes it with formalin in its rid ich+ product is that it can be very toxic at high doses. Therefore it states that it puts the two meds together to make one that is effective but not deadly as a higher malachite concentration would be.

Rob, on copper with ozone, I believe that the ozone can break down the copper from from Cu2 to Cu1 or something like that which will cause the copper to be 10x as toxic (deadly). Therefore I don't want to run ozone in my hospital tanks. Still waiting to hear from Olin.
 
Never seen ity happen with Ozone and Copper, I run Copper and Ozone with UV on my entire system at a theraputic level. As does most major livestock wholesalers. I pretty much copied their formula for success. Sucks that involves replacing UV bulbs on 6 months cycles not 12 months. Thats quite the pricey operation.
 
I believe I read that stuff on copper and ozone from the cupramine people, not the coppersafe people. Still didn't want to take a chance on that.
 
Sorry for the late reply - long day in the lab! Anyway, I will post some more info tomorrow, going to bed asap. I have formalin and tri-sulfa and other drugs available if you need them. I can meet up on campus or drop em off with Rob if you'd like. Trimeth-sulfa is a great little drug - I work on endangered fishes quite a bit these days and it's my first line antibiotic for most diseases, only moving to the others if resistance is proven. I'll post more on copper, malachite and ozone tomorrow, too tired to open that bag o' worms right now.
 
Olin I would appreciate that. If you could drop something off with Rob, I will pick it up. Any information you could get me, I would like, especially on interactions.
 
I'll have it over at Rob's by about 3:00 today. My recommendation would be a 15 minute bath in formalin 1ml/l (unless the fish seems particularly distressed, then cut it short), place the fish back in the hospital tank with a full water change (no copper at this point unless the ich returns), and add trimeth-sulfa 1/2 tablet per 20 gallons to combat secondary infections. As far as interactions, ozone and copper can react, but it's more of a problem in small systems like a hospital tank. in larger systems the more reactive and toxic form will complex with substrates and be taken out of the water so no toxic accumulation will usually occur. I haven't tried rid-ich in saltwater systems but it does well in freshwater. Can't speak to what malachite green does in salt though. I know it has been used successfully in saltwater food fishes (before it was banned for that use due to potential for causing cancer in humans), but I would use it cautiously, probably as a dip rather than a standing multi day treatment.
 
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