Is PAR/PPFD even that useful to us?

Gomer

New member
I thought I would bring this from a local forum here to the masses. I see tons of measurements where people show off how much PAR and PPFD they are getting with their setup etc etc. I also see that almost the entire reef community is taking Sanjay's numbers as the gospel guide to coral growth. "omg, this bulb has so much PAR/PPFD compared to another, it will grow your corals way better" etc etc.

What worries me is this:
PAR is defined in terms of photon (quantum) flux, specifically, the number of moles of photons in the radiant energy
between 400 nm and 700 nm. One mole of photons is 6.0222 x 1023 photons (6.0222 x 1023 is Avagadro’s Number).
The Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD), i.e., the photon irradiance, is expressed in moles per square meter
and per second (formerly, Einsteins per square meter and per second).

PAR and PPFD are bandpass functions. A 400nm photo is equal to a 500nm photon is equal to a 700nm photon in they eyes of PAR/PPFD. THe problem is, corals do not respond in this way. Take a look at the action spectra from various photosynthetic organisms in the ocean


Photosynthesis of Phytoplankton and Zooxanthellae on a Coral Reef
B.D. Scott and H.R. Jitts
Marine Biology 41, 307-315 (1977) MARINE BIOLOGY
Picture1-1.png


Notice how it is anything but a flat line between 400-700.


You can have two light sources measuring 10,000PAR at 600nm and a 10,000PAR at 450nm. For the Tridacna maxima, the 450nm light has 4x the growing potential, but has the same value of PAR.

Am I missing something? Are we as a hobby looking at light in the wrong way?
 
I don't think that measuring par is useless. It is better than just measuring lux. Maybe the thing to do is get the spectral power graph (is that what it's called?) for individual bulbs.
It's interesting that 600nm looks almost useless.
Any idea where the action spectra of macro algaes like Chaeto can be found? A bulb could be chosen to match the macro's needs, minimizing the wattage needed to run an algae filter. Really interesting post. Thanks.
 
Question: Does the color temp of the halide bulb affect how many 600nm photons you get over the more useful 400-500nm and 650-700nm photons?

If so, then I would say that PAR alone isn't useful without knowing the specific color temp of the bulb. There has to be a way to figure out how much of say, 200 PAR at 24" depth is made up of usable photosynthetic photons.
 
Short answer: Yes.

Long answer:

400nm photon is a specific "color" of photo. 400 is a deep purple. About as far as you can see into the blue. 700nm is deep red (red limit for visibel). 535 nm is a brilliant green (laser color :P).

You have intensities over all these different colors and you then fit them to a curve called a blackbody curve (don't worry what that is).
that deturmines your kelvin.

Also color temp isn't as useful. You really need to know the spectrum of the bulb and intigrate it and multiply against the specific photosynthetic absorption profile to get the important number.
 
Tony you are so asking in the wrong place :) I'll cut and paste your post in a place I know you'll get the replies you seek :)
 
I saw the post from Gresham and I came a runnin' :D

Very, very good question, I must say.

First things first, action spectra describe the efficiency of light absorption for given wavelengths, not the efficiency of usage of light once it's been absorbed. This is an important distinction, as we'll see.

When a photosynthetic organism absorbs a photon, that photon can be absorbed either by chl a, or by one of several accessory pigments. Chl a has characteristic absorption peaks in the red and the blue/violet. You can see that here (ignore chl b--that's in green plants and irrelevant to corals):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chlorophyll_ab_spectra.png

When chl a absorbs a photon at low light levels, it can put that photon into photochemistry pretty darn efficiently.

However, most of the photons that are absorbed by a photocenter get absorbed by accessory pigments and are transferred to chl a to get put into photochemistry. Dinoflagellates have several accessory pigments, each with their own characteristic action spectra (chl c2, peridinin, diatoxanthin, diadinoxanthin, chlorophyllidae). If you have access, you can see a graphic with the action spectra for all of these in this paper:

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/206/22/4041

When all is said and done, dinoflagellates are able to put ~60% of the light they absorb into photochemistry at lower light levels (sub-saturating) if the are otherwise healthy. That is to say, they have a quantum efficiency of ~0.6, give or take ~0.05.

So, a photon comes in, most likely hits antenna proteins (accessory pigments) on the photocenter, gets transferred down the antenna to chl a, and gets transferred into photochemistry (via the e- transport chain)....or at least it gets all the way through ~60% of the time in lower light with healthy zoox.

Once a photon gets to chl a, however, it doesn't matter one iota what the original wavelength of that photon was. Chl a can only transfer energy to the e- transport chain equivalent to essentially a red photon. Any excess energy is lost as heat or fluorescence. So, if a blue photon gets absorbed (much higher energy than a red photon) and makes it chl a to be tranferred, the exess energy is dumped and the energy equivalent to a red photon is transferred. If a red photon is absorbed and transferred to chl a there isn't any excess energy to dump.

Just to be perfectly clear here, once absorbed, the wavelength of the light has effectively no baring on photosynthesis. 1 mol of blue photons is the same as 1 mol of green photons is the same as 1 mol of red photons once they get to chl a.

BUT, the liklihood of initial absorption for any photon by the pigment/protein complex varies with wavelength. This is what the action spectrum shows us--the relative likelihood that a photon of a given wavelength will be absorbed.

The action spectra obtained from most corals looks most like what you see in Fig. 2d and Fig. 3 of the study you cite (you can see a couple in the study linked above). However, most action spectra for corals is actually much more even than most of these. You’ll tend to see a broad peak over the range of ~400-500 nm and a smaller peak at ~680 nm, but you don’t usually see a big lull in between like that for the T. maxima spectrum. The efficiency of absorption at the peak in the blue might be double what it is in the yellow/green, but that means they’re still absorbing a lot of photons in that region. You can see a fairly typical looking action spectrum (though perhaps slightly weak in the blue for most corals) for Favia zoox. isolated by Len Muscatine in Dana Riddle’s article here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/2/aafeature/view

The relevance of the action spectrum to photosynthesis depends on light intensity though. Recall that all photons, regardless of what color they are when absorbed, end up being the same when they get to chl a. If photosynthesis is light saturated, the action spectrum for a given plant becomes somewhat irrelevant. Whether they are getting full spectrum light, all blue light, all green light, all red light, or whatever weird spectrum you like, if photosynthesis is saturated with light, it doesn’t matter. Photons are photons are photons.

BUT, because the likelihood of absorption for a photon is wavelength dependent, it will take different numbers of photons (i.e., different PAR) to achieve saturation. We could use diffraction to get monochromatic light (i.e., what we’d use to produce an action spectrum in the first place). If the relative absorption at, say, 450 nm is 2, at 600 nm is 1, and at 680 nm is 1.5, we could achieve saturating light intensities a X umol photons/m2/s at 450 nm, 2X umol photons/m2/s at 600 nm, and 1.333 umol photons/m2/s at 680 nm. The action spectrum tells us how efficiently the plants are able to absorb incident light, but this is only relevant to the rate of photosynthesis at sub-saturating light intensities. If photosynthesis is saturated, is just doesn’t matter what the spectrum of the light is in terms of the rate of photosynthesis.

Now, if we wanted to design a lighting system to be as efficient as possible in terms of the proportion of incident light that is absorbed by the photosystem, we’d simply use a light source that emits all its light at the wavelength of peak absorbanceâ€"that’ll be somewhere in the range of 400-500 nm for most corals (between violet and cyan). However, in practice we don’t care one iota about how efficiently corals use the incident light, we care how much photosynthesis we can get for a given input of electricity into a bulb. This is where measuring PAR/PPFD becomes very relevant.

There are a number of metal halide bulbs that put out most of their light at ~450 nm, which should be close to the optimum wavelength of absorption for the photosystems. Many 12, 13, 14, 15, 20K, etc. bulbs fall into this category. The problem is that, while they produce most of their light where the photosystems are best at absorbing it, they produce relatively little light overall. Something like most 10K bulbs, and good old fashioned Iwasaki 6500K bulbs produce a much more even spectrum. They have their spikes and such, as all halides do, but nothing like the all-or-nothing spikiness of “blue” halides. Not only do they produce a more even spectrum, they tend to produce a heck of a lot more light (much higher PAR/PPFD).

So now we get into the problem of answering, how much of the incident light is actually absorbed and put into photosynthesis over this entire range. This measure is typically called PUR, photosynthetically usable radiation. In order to calculate the PUR you have a good spectrum from your incident light as well as the reflected light (inverse of the action spectrum). The difference in the two (in other words, incident light â€"œ reflected light = absorbed light) is the PUR…or at least it would be if life were easy. In something like a dense phytoplankton culture where light is extinguished within the culture, or with many types of plants, you can get a good approximation of PUR by subtracting the reflected light spectrum from the incident spectrum to get absorbed light. Corals…corals are more complicated, unfortunately.

First, most corals have one or more fluorescent proteins that have nothing to do with photosynthesis at all. They absorb at one wavelength and reflect at another, which can monkey things up a bit. They also tend to have endolithic algae growing below their tissues in the skeleton. These algae absorb light (hence less light is reflected back) and can give the impression that the corals are absorbing and using more light than they actually are.

If we happen to be so lucky as to have a coral without any fluorescent proteins, or especially endolithic algae, it would be far easier to measure the PUR…at least hypotheticallyâ€"we spent days trying to get things to work well last year in Curacao. BUT (there’s always a but), the action spectrum for a given coral is not constant. It depends on the particular mix of chl a and accessory pigments in the zoox. in the coral, and that can change over the course of hours (somewhat) to weeks (substantially). So even if we do a good job of approximating action spectrum for a given coral (we can use software to calculate the PUR from that action spectrum for any given light source if we have the spectrum and intensity), that action spectrum is not necessarily going to work for that coral (either species or individual) under all conditions.

This number that we’d ideally like to have, the PUR, therefore becomes a heck of a lot of work and difficulty to come by, something we can only produce with fairly expensive equipment (many thousands of dollars), and something that we would have to reassess regularly. For these reasons, we don’t deal with this number under normal circumstances.

The best second available to us is just using straight PAR/PPFD. Again, at saturating light intensity it doesn’t matter what the light spectrum is. At sub-saturating light intensity, blue light is the ideal, but the vast difference in intensity between “blue” halides and “white” halides is so vast that, in practice, “white” halides can usually get us to saturating light intensities pretty darn easily for a given input of electricity whereas “blue” bulbs often yield sub-saturating intensity for that same input of electricity.

When people study something that relies on photosynthesis, typically they do a small pilot study beforehand to determine where photosynthesis becomes light saturated with the light they plan to use (sunlight or artificial). Usually people use something with a spectrum close to sunlight to get close to real-world applicability. When people do P/E curves (photosynthesis vs. irradiance) they usually try to do the same thing. In practice, any differences due to light spectrum (since lights are usually pretty close to sunlight) is usually not big enough to measure.

Hope that helps…I’m off to nurse carpal tunnel ;)

Chris
 
I need to read through this a second time, but I saw two things you said that need addressing.

1) The figures in the paper I cited are photosynthetic respiration action spectra, not absorption spectra which means they are a good indication on the plants usage of light to generate energy. (unless I am reading it wrong).
2) while all photons that get absorbed (directly or indirectly) matter, they are not all created equal. Pulling out the good ol E=hc/L, you can see that a 400nm photon is more energetic then a 600nm photo. Even if through chlorophyll and auxillary pigmants, you can have a quantum absorption efficiency of 1 for both wavelengths, the 400nm photon energy delivered is different. After all, it is the transfer of energy that matters not photon count absorbed. For those two wavelengths, E(400)/E(600)=L(600)/L(400), ie 400nm photon carries 1.5x more energy then the 600nm photon.

Also, if you want to get the PUR for a coral that fluoresces, just use a narrow linewidth source (Xe source with a 1nm linewidth monochromator) and then you can decouple the reflectance from the fluorescence. Of course, you'd have to make an efficiency approximation for fluorescence energy conversion.

Edit: also also, while for some coral, the photosynthetic action spectrum isn't fill of major dips and valleys, it does have dips and valleys. A par that has 2x the PAR over one bulb may end up having 1/2 the PUR. These aren't orders of magnitude things, but a factor of 2 or even 1.5 is big. someone with 2 metal halides over their tank will have a big change if they went to 3 or 1 bulb. ..just factors of 1.5 or 2.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12835496#post12835496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gomer
I need to read through this a second time, but I saw two things you said that need addressing.

1) The figures in the paper I cited are photosynthetic respiration action spectra, not absorption spectra which means they are a good indication on the plants usage of light to generate energy. (unless I am reading it wrong).

These are effectively the same thing for the organisms they were testing. Phytoplankton (including zooxanthellae) are effectively transparent in the visible range except for photopigments. Light absorbed is light that can be used for photochemistry (quantum yield ~0.6 for dinoflagellates).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12835496#post12835496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gomer
2) while all photons that get absorbed (directly or indirectly) matter, they are not all created equal.

In terms of the capacity to perform photochemistry, they quite literally are. Any energy contained in a photon above that in one of ~700 nm (I think 700 nm…I’ll have to double check) is lost as heat and/or fluorescence. A blue photon is a green photon is a red photon in terms of the capacity to perform photochemistry.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12835496#post12835496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gomer
Pulling out the good ol E=hc/L, you can see that a 400nm photon is more energetic then a 600nm photo.

You are absolutely correct, but this has no baring on photochemistry. The energy is transported through an e- transport chain. Electrons can only absorb particular quanta of energy to jump to higher energy levels. Thus, any energy above the required quanta is lost as heat or fluorescence.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12835496#post12835496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gomer
Even if through chlorophyll and auxillary pigmants, you can have a quantum absorption efficiency of 1 for both wavelengths, the 400nm photon energy delivered is different. After all, it is the transfer of energy that matters not photon count absorbed.

Huh-uh, not for photosynthesis. It is quite literally the photon count absorbed and transferred that matters, not the energy of those photons. That’s another reason we use PAR/PPFD as a proxy for light available for photosynthesis. Energy is meaningless; number of photons (absorbed and transferred) is everything.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12835496#post12835496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gomer
For those two wavelengths, E(400)/E(600)=L(600)/L(400), ie 400nm photon carries 1.5x more energy then the 600nm photon.

Yes, but for photosynthesis this is irrelevant.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12835496#post12835496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gomer
Also, if you want to get the PUR for a coral that fluoresces, just use a narrow linewidth source (Xe source with a 1nm linewidth monochromator) and then you can decouple the reflectance from the fluorescence. Of course, you'd have to make an efficiency approximation for fluorescence energy conversion.

Agreed, but this gets very complicated in corals that harber 2, 3, 4, 5, or more fluorescent and non-fluorescent pigments and that can vary the concentration of those pigments over relatively short timescales (hours to weeks).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12835496#post12835496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gomer
Edit: also also, while for some coral, the photosynthetic action spectrum isn't fill of major dips and valleys, it does have dips and valleys. A par that has 2x the PAR over one bulb may end up having 1/2 the PUR. These aren't orders of magnitude things, but a factor of 2 or even 1.5 is big. someone with 2 metal halides over their tank will have a big change if they went to 3 or 1 bulb. ..just factors of 1.5 or 2.

Agreed, but the difference in PAR/PPFD among some bulbs is huge. A “white” bulb that is twice as bright as a “blue” bulb will get you more photosynthesis, assuming subsaturating intensities, I promise you. If all bulbs produced the same intensity, it would make a lot of sense to use “blue” bulbs if the goal were to maximize photosynthesis, but that is not the case.

Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12831516#post12831516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gomer
I am guessing you completely ignored what I wrote and went off of the title.

No need to be snooty about things, I was only trying to contribute to the discussion. :)

I was just pointing out that PAR measurements do have some undisputable utility. I think anyone reading this discussion should keep this in mind. In further defence of PAR, can you think of a better measure of light efficiency that can be obtained by the average hobbyist for less time and money?

Thank you MCsaxmaster. You were very patient to answer at such length for Gomer a question he could should have been able to answer for himself through a little more careful reading of basic biochemistry texts and online articles (considering he is a chemist). I found your dissertation very well reasoned and informative.

The real disadvantage of PAR has nothing to do with action spectrums (we are already saturated, as MCsaxmaster points out). PAR just gives us an approximation of how efficiently we are stimulating photosynthesis. It tells us very little about how a given light source will affect a coral's pigmentation (and more broadly its color). In this regard, it is only useful in that we can hope (though I'm not sure anyone has proven this yet) that supersaturated corals will downregulate zoox density. But this is, of coarse, only a small part of coral coloration. (MCsaxmaster, please let me know if this is an accurate assessment.)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12835314#post12835314 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
Now, if we wanted to design a lighting system to be as efficient as possible in terms of the proportion of incident light that is absorbed by the photosystem, we’d simply use a light source that emits all its light at the wavelength of peak absorbanceâ€"that’ll be somewhere in the range of 400-500 nm for most corals (between violet and cyan). However, in practice we don’t care one iota about how efficiently corals use the incident light, we care how much photosynthesis we can get for a given input of electricity into a bulb. This is where measuring PAR/PPFD becomes very relevant.

There are a number of metal halide bulbs that put out most of their light at ~450 nm, which should be close to the optimum wavelength of absorption for the photosystems. Many 12, 13, 14, 15, 20K, etc. bulbs fall into this category. The problem is that, while they produce most of their light where the photosystems are best at absorbing it, they produce relatively little light overall. Something like most 10K bulbs, and good old fashioned Iwasaki 6500K bulbs produce a much more even spectrum. They have their spikes and such, as all halides do, but nothing like the all-or-nothing spikiness of “blue” halides. Not only do they produce a more even spectrum, they tend to produce a heck of a lot more light (much higher PAR/PPFD).

So now we get into the problem of answering, how much of the incident light is actually absorbed and put into photosynthesis over this entire range. This measure is typically called PUR, photosynthetically usable radiation. In order to calculate the PUR you have a good spectrum from your incident light as well as the reflected light (inverse of the action spectrum). The difference in the two (in other words, incident light â€"œ reflected light = absorbed light) is the PUR…or at least it would be if life were easy. In something like a dense phytoplankton culture where light is extinguished within the culture, or with many types of plants, you can get a good approximation of PUR by subtracting the reflected light spectrum from the incident spectrum to get absorbed light. Corals…corals are more complicated, unfortunately.

Chris

OK, I followed that... kind of. Can we put this into practical terms for a simplified baseline comparison?

If we assume that a given 250w 10k has double the PAR of a 250w 20k (450nm), how would the two bulbs compare in terms of PUR actually providing energy to the zoox?

Worded another way, if the output of a 10k reaches the exact saturation point for a coral how much less PAR would a 20k need to produce to reach that same saturation point?

(I realize bulb spectrums vary greatly, so this comparison is very generalized)
 
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kmckay, My "snooty reply" was in response to the common place post which I see a lot where people read what they want to read and not what the post is trying to target. Of course you are correct that a PAR can tell you when to change a bulb, but how does that contribute in anyway to the OP on PAR and the photosynthetic action spectrum?

You rank on me being "snooty" and then drop the "snooty bomb" with "oh, read the text books blaah blaah blaah". Why wouldn't I want to If you want to play this card, you have a lot of work to do. You need to go into 99.99% of all the posts on just about every forum and do this.

I had an idea which I did look into a bit and found a thought discontinuity and was looking for a discussion from someone who knew more about this than I did. Yes I am a chemist, but I dont touch chemicals. I work with lasers and optics and all sorts of physical chemistry things but it doesn't mean I have access to all the info. I still have more questions for MCSax, but I guess I shouldn't bother asking them because they may be answered in some text book or journal.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12864481#post12864481 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by shelburn61
OK, I followed that... kind of. Can we put this into practical terms for a simplified baseline comparison?

At a single, low light level, pure blue light may produce slightly higher rates of photosynthesis than full-spectrum light, but not always. The difference may be so small it’s immeasurable in some cases.

At different light intensities, higher intensity will usually provide higher photosynthesis regardless of light spectrum.

At high light intensity, photosynthesis will become light saturated and light spectrum doesn’t matter. “High” is with regard to the organism and previous conditioning. Fully saturating for one coral isn’t even close to saturating for another.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12864481#post12864481 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by shelburn61
If we assume that a given 250w 10k has double the PAR of a 250w 20k (450nm), how would the two bulbs compare in terms of PUR actually providing energy to the zoox?

The 10K bulb will probably have less than 2x the PUR if it has 2x the PAR, but probably not by much. As a rough estimate, I’d guess at least 1.5x and maybe close to 2x. It depends on the spectrum of the light source and the action spectrum of the zoox. in hospite.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12864481#post12864481 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by shelburn61
Worded another way, if the output of a 10k reaches the exact saturation point for a coral how much less PAR would a 20k need to produce to reach that same saturation point?

(I realize bulb spectrums vary greatly, so this comparison is very generalized)

It depends on the spectrum of the light source and the zoox. in hospite. Having said that, most 10K bulbs are heavy in the violet and have a bit more light in the rest of the spectrum than a 20K bulb, which usually has a big spike at 450 nm and much less elsewhere. Light anywhere from 400-500 nm (violet to cyan) is absorbed really well by zoox. The difference in blue at 450 nm from a 20K and violet at 400-450 nm (usually a spike ~420 nm) in a 10K is not much.

You’d probably need nearly the same PAR from a “blue” halide as you do from a “white” halide to match the PURâ€"maybe a few percent less, but not much.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12866393#post12866393 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gomer
kmckay, My "snooty reply" was in response to the common place post which I see a lot where people read what they want to read and not what the post is trying to target. Of course you are correct that a PAR can tell you when to change a bulb, but how does that contribute in anyway to the OP on PAR and the photosynthetic action spectrum?

You rank on me being "snooty" and then drop the "snooty bomb" with "oh, read the text books blaah blaah blaah". Why wouldn't I want to If you want to play this card, you have a lot of work to do. You need to go into 99.99% of all the posts on just about every forum and do this.

I had an idea which I did look into a bit and found a thought discontinuity and was looking for a discussion from someone who knew more about this than I did. Yes I am a chemist, but I dont touch chemicals. I work with lasers and optics and all sorts of physical chemistry things but it doesn't mean I have access to all the info. I still have more questions for MCSax, but I guess I shouldn't bother asking them because they may be answered in some text book or journal.

Please ask away. I seek expertise from others on a daily basis at least, I’m sure. No one is expert in everything. I especially wouldn't expect someone trained in chemistry, to be expert in photosynthesis. Likewise, I was trained in biology and am not expert on M-theory in physics. I know a little aboutit, but I don't have the background to put all the pieces together the way a physicist can. Photosynthesis is sufficiently complex that even those trained in biology that do not work on photophysiology have incomplete understandings of the discipline, myself included.

Personally, I thought your question was a very well thought-out one. I takes a high degree of understanding to even begin to ask such pertinent questions.

Chris
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12867479#post12867479 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster


The 10K bulb will probably have less than 2x the PUR if it has 2x the PAR, but probably not by much. As a rough estimate, I’d guess at least 1.5x and maybe close to 2x. It depends on the spectrum of the light source and the action spectrum of the zoox. in hospite.

You’d probably need nearly the same PAR from a “blue” halide as you do from a “white” halide to match the PURâ€"maybe a few percent less, but not much.

Chris

That pretty much sums it up for me ...
You do know what you're talking about right MCsax? :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12868276#post12868276 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by shelburn61
You do know what you're talking about right MCsax? :)

For as long as I can pull the wool over everyone's eyes, yes, yes I do :lol:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12866393#post12866393 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gomer
Of course you are correct that a PAR can tell you when to change a bulb, but how does that contribute in anyway to the OP on PAR and the photosynthetic action spectrum?

From my post, "I think anyone reading this discussion should keep this in mind." That is why I thought it a reliant point. Perhaps if you had titled your post "The relationship between PAR and action spectrum" instead of " Is PAR/PPFD even that useful to us?" then I wouldn't have become confused about the proper scope of the discussion. Surely you can admit that my mistake was reasonable.
 
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