Is this a bad idea?

[sonofgaladriel]

I'm going to be setting up a roughtly 24"x24"x16" nano within the next few weeks. I want to be able to keep it visible from all four sides and thus hide the plumbing. I didn't want an overflow box taking up valuable space and blocking any of the view so I thought about the following option:

The drain will be 1" PVC with as low a profile strainer as I can find and will sit only about 5" to 7" high. The returns will be 1/2" with loose 45's on the ends so I can direct the flow where needed and they will sit very close to the bottom, mostly hidden by the sand and corals. I may also hook up my Oceans motions 8 way to the return line for random flow.
Biggest concern is power outage and/or pump failure which would drain the tank. So, I was thinking that a high quality check valve on both the drain and return lines would solve that problem. However, knowing that they sometimes fail or leak, the sump will be of sufficient size to handle the extra volume of the tank.
I should be able to hide the drain tube with a small amount of rock, or a DIY fake rock cover and the returns should be well hidden by the corals or with minimal rockscaping.
What do you guys think? Stupid idea? Destined to fail? Anyone else doing this same thing? I'd love to see pics.
Thanks
Sean

 

[sonofgaladriel]

Oh, one other question: How bad will the noise from the drain be? Would the drain be virtually silent since its totally under water?

 

[bbnz]

Don't know why you would need a check valve for the drain line. The water shouldn't flow back to the tank. Or is there something I'm missing?

 

[sonofgaladriel]

Don't know why you would need a check valve for the drain line. The water shouldn't flow back to the tank. Or is there something I'm missing?

You're right. A check valve won't work in that direction. Duh!
I would still like to install something that would prevent any water from draining into the sump if there is a power failure. Maybe some kind of solenoid type valve? I'd like to keep the water level as high in the tank as possible during this type of incident.

 

[bbnz]

I've always been kind of weary of this type of overflow. Kind of tricky getting the flow to sump to match your return. If any type of obstruction occurs while your not monitoring it you end up with water on the floor. Probably the only way around this would be like an ATO switch in reverse so the pump stays on while the water is up and off if it drops. Then you have the ugly switch that kind of defeats the "no observable overflow" idea.

 

[sonofgaladriel]

I've always been kind of weary of this type of overflow. Kind of tricky getting the flow to sump to match your return. If any type of obstruction occurs while your not monitoring it you end up with water on the floor. Probably the only way around this would be like an ATO switch in reverse so the pump stays on while the water is up and off if it drops. Then you have the ugly switch that kind of defeats the "no observable overflow" idea.

Good point. I hadn't thought of the balance issue between drain and return flow.

 

[Agu]

You realize that if either check valve fails corals above the inlet/outlet will be above the low water line ? The solution I've seen is to have a center overflow also drilled for the returns. It's hidden with aquascaping and corals.

 

[sonofgaladriel]

Yes, I'm well aware of that. Thank you. I've already mentioned that I do not want an overflow that goes up to the surface. I want a totally unobstructed view of the entire water column from the sand to the surface. Four sided viewing and open water above the corals is a must.
I've got another idea for a 'drain' that just might work that will allow for surface skimming and not empty the tank should pump fail.

 

[Gold Stripe]

There really is no "reliable" way to do this without the overflow extending to the surface of the water.

 

[JasonBJones]

A few suggestions.

Return lines- Make them elbows instead of Ts and put them in a direction that creates a circular flow in the tank. If you can get the water to move in a circular motion, it will increase the water flow without having to increase the pump size. I am not sure if that makes sense, so I will try a little example. If you take a bucket with a small pump in it and point the pump straight across the middle, it moves the middle section of the water pretty well, but doesn't move the water not in front of it very well. On the other hand, if you put the pump along the wall and aim it along the wall, it will get the whole water column moving in a circular direction and you will have much greater movement and flow in the tank. So, going back to my initial suggestion, if you turn them all to where they make a circular flow pattern you will get increased flow. You will also get more than enough random motion from the water bouncing off rocks and colliding with other areas of moving water.

Your drain idea- I hate to say it, but there isn't a very good way to do what you are trying to do. Generally drains work by being able to drain more water than the return pump can handle. In your case, you can't do this because then the water would drain all the way down to your drain pipe. On the other hand, you can not have the drain slower than the return pump or you will overflow the top tank. Therefore, in order to make it work you have to match the drain and return pump exactly, but this is nearly impossible. As soon as gunk builds up in either one, you will be in trouble because one will flow more than the other. Also, keep in mind that your sump needs to be able to handle all the water volume above the drain in case of a power outage.

The best bet is to build the drain to the top and build your rockwork around the drain to hide it.

 

[TTrout]

Not sure if this would work or not, but the only thing I can think of. A tank in side of a tank. The inner tank would overflow into the outer tank and would have a bulkhead at the bottom. The inner tank would be raised slightly to allow the water to flow to the drain.

There are a lot of problems with this, how do you support the inner tank? Would the inner tank be viewable with the water flowing down the sides?

I think this idea has been done before, but not sure how.

 

[TripleT]

I would never have enough faith in check valves preventing a flood, and nearly draining my tank.

Not worth the risk.

 

[VacavilleFC3S]

IMO your just asking for trouble with this setup, the only possible way this would be safe is if you have the sump at the same height as the tank

 

[sonofgaladriel]

Thanks for all the input guys. I have re thought the drain issue and this is what I have come up with:
First pic is a top down view. Second pick from the side. Third from the back. The catch basin is below the level of the tank and will mostly be hidden by the stand trim.

Basically, I am borrowing the idea of the zero edge aquarium and a cut out at the top of the back pane will act as the overflow. Water will simply drain over the edge, down the back pane into a resevoir/catch basin in which I will install two durso pipes that will lead to the sump. I have spent the weekend with some samples using small acrylic boxes with this design and it works well. I'll place a fine screen at the overflow to keep snails and fish from going over the edge if this turns out to be problem.
For the returns, I'm going to raise them up to about mid level, maybe up 3/4 of the height of the tank and hide them within the corals. This way, should the pump lose power and the check valves fail, the water will only drain to the height of the returns and most corals will still be submersed in the water.
This keeps the four sided viewing I am wanting and all plumbing will still be virtually invisible.
We'll see how it works. I've got a local tank fabricator starting on the project within the week. He'll be using 3/4" material for the tank. 1/2" for the catch basin.
I'll post when its up and running.

 

[TTrout]

Should be very interesting. I wonder if there will be any issues with the water on the glass. For example salt buildup or algae? And how would that effect the directional flow down the glass or potentially off the side of the glass and on to the floor?

 

[TripleT]

Creative, but I wonder how the water streaming down will look. And if you'll get salt creep along the edges of the stream.

I would think you will only need a single durso. Actually, I wonder if the two will interfere with each other.

You'll have to post videos of this in action.

 

[sonofgaladriel]

I'm a bit anal when it comes to cleaning the tank, so every morning and evening it will be quite easy to wipe down the back pane of any salt creep and nuissance algae. The ocassional 'stray' stream of water should not be problem unless snails become an issue and crawl over the side and redirect the flow, hence the addition of a small screen at the overflow area should this become an issue. I don't plan on adding any snails and will diligently remove any hitchhikers that I find in the tank.
Keeping the overflow notch small and in the direct middle of the tank, combined with the full length catch basin, should catch all potential 'stray' streams. Water pretty much keeps to the path of least resistance, so I'm 'relatively' confident that it will flow directly down and keep its path. If need be, I'm also prepared to add clear acrylic 'channels' directly down from the overflow edges to keep the water directed straight down and avoid any potential of the 'stray' streams. I hope that I don't have to add those.
I'm planning on keeping the flow from the return pump a minimum with the hopes of keeping the overflow volume to a minimum. Most of the tank's flow will come from a closed loop I'll install in the bottom. Since there will be a closed loop consisting of 8 small returns (using my 8 way OceansMotions), I'll only need on return from the sump which should be easy to hide in the corals.

 

[JasonBJones]

I think your idea will work just fine but will disrupt the viewing of the tank much more than a center drain

 

[TheMikey]

I'm by no means an expert on plumbing, but I do have something else you might want to consider:

What about trying to modify your original design so that your drain extends via PVC pipe to the surface? Cover it in LR (perhaps epoxy or build a "bonsai" look around it) in order to hide it and then go with the original design? That way you have the surface skimmed and have minimal interference with the tank's viewing angle.

Or, move the overflow piping into one of the corners and extend it again to the surface. Again, this minimizes the clutter you're trying to avoid and should let you get away with something close to your original design.

Good luck!

 

[sonofgaladriel]

Creative, but I wonder how the water streaming down will look. And if you'll get salt creep along the edges of the stream.

I would think you will only need a single durso. Actually, I wonder if the two will interfere with each other.

You'll have to post videos of this in action.[/QUOTE
One of the dursos will be slightly higher than the other and act as a redundant overflow should the main get clogged.