Kalk ATO precipitate: what is it?

Palting

New member
I should clarify the question. I try to make sure that I get in as much kalk to saturate the ATO water, so I put in 2 heaping measured teaspoons for each gallon. I don't want to start using vinegar, becasue that adds a level of carbon dosing I don't want to or cannot deal with yet. Anyway, this method of heaping teaspoons does result in a layer of precipitate in the bottom of the ATO reservoir.

So now, what I want to know is, is any part of that precipitate still usable? Am I just putting too much kalk powder, so that all I need to do is keep adding RODI to replenish the ATO reservoir, then just stir up the precipite to get it in solution? Add more kalk powder only when there is no pecipiatate left?

Thanks for any help!!
 
You will get precipitate even at much lower than saturated levels of Kalk as it precipitates out impurities and forms a solid that sinks to the bottom. I think you only need to use 2 level teaspoons per gallon and the rest will just remain undissolved at the bottom so you are probably getting a bunch of kalk wasted. If you don't want to use vinegar to boost the amount dissolved I wouldn't keep adding heaping spoonfuls as it isn't doing anything but wasting it. That said you could just leave it sitting at the bottom to make absolutely sure the solution is as saturated as possible but as you do this for a while the build-up is just going to add up more and more.
 
Thanks, BK. I'm just trying to figure out how to hit that sweet spot: Full saturation without waste.
 
Yes, some of the precipitate may be undissolved calcium hydroxide which is reusable next time, and some is unusable calcium carbonate and magnesium hydroxide.

I discuss it here:

What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.htm

from it:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.php#9

Precipitates on the Bottom of Limewater Reservoirs
The solids on the bottom of a limewater reservoir (Figures 5 and 7) contain everything that did not dissolve, or that dissolved and later precipitated from solution. Such solids could contain magnesium hydroxide and carbonate, calcium hydroxide and carbonate and a variety of other impurities such as copper salts, alumina, silica, etc.

In order to determine what is in these deposits, I tested a sample of the white solid material that had been collecting for months on the bottom of my limewater reservoir, and detailed the results in a previous article. I removed the white sludge along with some limewater. The mixture of solid and liquid was acidified to dissolve it, and it was tested for calcium, magnesium, and strontium. The results are shown in Table 1. Only relative concentrations are shown as no effort was made to dry the sample prior to analysis, making absolute concentrations meaningless.

As anticipated, based on the very low solubility of magnesium hydroxide and the high concentration of hydroxide ion in limewater, the solid material on the bottom of the limewater is enriched with magnesium. Relative to calcium, magnesium is enriched by a factor of 13 in the sludge compared to the solid starting quicklime. This magnesium may be present as both magnesium hydroxide and magnesium carbonate, but because magnesium carbonate is fairly soluble compared to calcium carbonate, it is most likely that the primary magnesium salt is magnesium hydroxide. It may also be mixed calcium and magnesium carbonates.

Interestingly, strontium is actually depleted by a factor of two relative to solid starting quicklime, indicating that it is less likely than calcium to end up on the bottom of the reservoir. While strontium carbonate is somewhat less soluble than calcium carbonate, the strontium concentration in the limewater is so low that SrCO3 may not actually be saturated, so it may not precipitate at all. The strontium that is there may simply be copreciptiated with calcium carbonate.

The solids on the bottom of a limewater reservoir or the residue left in a limewater reactor can also contain other materials. Phosphate, for example, would be insoluble in limewater, precipitating as calcium phosphate. Many toxic metals, such as copper, are also insoluble in the high pH of limewater, forming carbonates or oxides. These metals can also bind directly to undissolved lime or to calcium carbonate precipitates, as I showed in a previous article. In a sense, this precipitation can purify the limewater so that in some cases it may be even purer than the starting water or lime.

This purification is also seen in practice by many aquarists who have noticed the solids on the bottom of their limewater containers discolor, often to a bluish/green color suggesting copper. For these reasons, I recommend that lime solids not be dosed to aquaria when it is possible to avoid it. Letting the limewater settle for a few hours to overnight will permit most of the large particles to settle out, and whether it looks clear at that point or not, it is likely fine to use. In general, it is a good practice to leave residual solids on the bottom of limewater reservoirs rather than cleaning them out every time, as they may actually help purify the water by these precipitation mechanisms. Once the solids discolor, or have been collecting for 6-12 months, however, they should be discarded.


Figure 7. A view of the side of my limewater reservoir after the water level has lowered. The precipitate is most likely calcium carbonate formed when residual limewater on the sides reacts with air, but may also include solids that settled from the initial mixing, and so may resemble the material found on the bottom of the container (Figure 5). I can't recall ever cleaning off the sides of this container.
Figure7.jpg
 
So, I've always wondered.. Let say I mix up a bucket and use 2 tablespoons per gallon the first time. Then use up the kalkwasser and leave the precipitate behind and then refill the bucket without re-adding more calcium hydroxide powder. Even do this several times.. On the subsequent refills, would I be leaching the phosphate/metal 'contaminates' back out of the sludge??
 
So, I've always wondered.. Let say I mix up a bucket and use 2 tablespoons per gallon the first time. Then use up the kalkwasser and leave the precipitate behind and then refill the bucket without re-adding more calcium hydroxide powder. Even do this several times.. On the subsequent refills, would I be leaching the phosphate/metal 'contaminates' back out of the sludge??

Some may, and some will stay on the bottom. As long as it is concentrated enough to make limewater each time, even half saturated, any dissolution will be minimal and I clean mine out less than once a year. :)
 
Wow. I am overwhelmed. Had to read the responses and the links a few times to digest it. But certainly worth it. Thanks, Randy! :).

I do have one more question, though, and I hope you can settle my unease due to my ignorance. My ATO reservoir is a covered but not sealed rubbermaid container that contains enough water for 1 week or slightly more days worth for evap replaacement. When I use it for kalkwasser dosing, that means that the limewater sits in that covered container for 1 week before it gets consumed. I've read statements that limewater loses potency over time due to C02 reaction. Is 1 week sitting in a covered rubbermaid container too long a time that it loses significant potency? Thanks again!!
 
HAH!!! I think I found the answer to my own question by following one of the links provided by the articles to another artcle written by, guess who, none other than Randy!! :D

I think I know the answer to my next question, but I will ask the question anyway. Nothing like heaing the right answer from the great man himself.

I have used both the Nilsen reactor (TLK kalk reactor) fed through the ATO, and the dissolve-the-kalk-in-the-ATO reservoir method. My perceived worries are that if I leave the TLF reactor alone and keep it running with the ATO, eventually there is no residue, which means that the insoluble phosphates and copper and toxic metals made it into the DT. OTOH, I have a rubbermaid 22 gallon rubbermaid reservoir with a cover, and I worry that the limewater sits in it for a week and loses potency.

Since I have the capability for either, which one should I use? I think I know, but I just need to hear it from the expert. Thanks!!

EDIT: Thanks, Bertoni. I was typing when you answered. I guess that answers that!! Kalk in the ATO it is! Thanks again!!
 
I wouldn't worry all that much about impurities dissolving. If the reactor runs out of lime, low tank alkalinity will probably be the biggest concern. :)
 
Thanks, Randy. So now, imurities dissolving and ending up in the DT is not a problem. So a reactor is OK, too, just make sure it doesn't run out of lime.

Ok, so now I can not choose. I don't know which way to go, since either reactor or kalk-in-ATO-reservoir seem to be alright ways to do kalk dosing, and I can do either. LOL!!

I think I'l just do what Randy does. I'll take the TLF reactor off-line, and just put kalk directly into the ATO reservoir, and replenish at 2tsp/gallon once a week.
 
this was one of the things I was wondering about a lot.

So basically when I top off the topper offer, add x amount of kalk and stir it up. Done!!!

Infrequently, clean out the bottom precipitates but no cause for a rush on that.

It's nice to have something easy once in a while! No need to overcomplicate!
 
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