Kelloggis Refresh my memory...

[FishyMel]

I know some of you had opinion on tank raised Kelloggis. Can you tell me why they are not a great horse to keep? (Hee Hee), no pun intended) I am specifically talking about T.R. that take frozen mysis. My LFS has some nice ones that are eating mysis like pigs and very friendly to people. Definitely T.R. in my opinion to be so friendly and eating so well.

 

[ann83]

People just haven't been having very good luck with them. Even people with many years experience with several different species were losing the TR Kelloggis to disease. The ones I've seen lately actually are looking more like Kuda than Kelloggi anyway (which I guess is better, since Kelloggi reach 11" and need a bigger tank- something 30" tall or taller and around 40 gallons or more for a pair should do) and there are thoughts that they aren't true Kelloggi and are some type of hybrid. There is also a very good chance that they have been net-pen raised in the ocean in Asia, giving them all the parasite and worm problems that wild caught seahorses would have. If you do decide to try them, I would treat them as wild caught and give them a six week or longer QT with de-worming treatments (unless your LFS can tell you the specific breeder and you can research them). I would also maintain a stable temp under 74 F (72 would be good), to keep the bacteria count down, and maybe even run a UV sterilizer, all to give you the best chance at keeping them long-term. And, of course, please update us on how it goes.

 

[pledosophy]

Parasites suck (I'm all over the puns today). TR seahorses have parasites. You spend all this time treating them, just to think they are O.K. when the parasite has migrated from the digestive track and into the intestines or brain and there is nothing you can do. Then your seahorse dies, and you are sad. Your wife and kids are crying, you have the bad seahorse dreams. Not fun.

In the mean time you are giving people money and encouraging them to continue breeding seahorses in this mannor. Saying nothing of what it is doing to the ecosystems of the areas the seahorses are being bred in. Thousands and thousands of fish are dying to set up these pens. We all know what happened with the Lionfish in the Carolina's, the taxifloria in on the West Coast, but these people don't care about anything except saving a few dollars and doing less work. Forget the ecosystems they are destroying. What a crock.

Buy CB aquacultured seahorses. Don't accept anything else. You might not get it now, but your seahorses will charm the socks off you and you will get it eventually. make a purchase of a healthy animal you will always feel good about.

FWIW I know PHD Marine Biologists with 20 years experience that could not keep the Kelloggi even though they went into it knowingly and were prepared for it.

 

[FishyMel]

Yikes...it sounds like tank raised does not mean CB? I did pick up one little female. She is alone in a 75 gallon tank. No other animals. Just liverock and macro and a couple of snails. I am on day 3 with her. She ate mysis at the store. The claim she was bred in a tank and not Asia. When I got her home she would eat nothing except the copepods in my tank for the first 2 days. Starting last night I was able to pipe mysis to her and she nibbled on a couple last night, and ate 4 of them this morning. Will feed her again tonight. Anticipating that she will take the mysis even better tonight. since she did better this morning then last night with them and she isn't shy at all. I guess I'll see how it goes. I really want to keep a pair of erectus eventually. I am going to see how it goes with this little female first. I have my eye on some at seahorsesource that look nice and affordable and definitely CB.

 

[ann83]

Um... hate to break it to you, but it won't be a good idea to put erectus in with the kelloggi girl. Theres a good probability you'll end up with a tank full of sick or dead seahorses; one or both species could die. With the reputation of erectus to get other species sick (because they are so hardy they can carry more virrulent things around), and the reputation of the TR Kelloggi to carry nasty things around, combined with the fact that its a risk to mix species even under the best of conditions, you'd be asking for a disaster. Even if this kelloggi girl doesn't make it, I wouldn't risk putting any other seahorses with the liverock, sand, and tankmates in that tank... at least not without a lot of researching on the dangers first.

As for your TR Kelloggi, it would be best for her to be in a bare bottom because you will need to watch her ppo to make sure she is eating enough and to watch for parasite problems. No poo is bad, and white stringy poo is bad. I would also put her in a QT tank so you can de-worm her (you won't want to do this in the display at the risk of killing off inverts and making the LR an invert killer for a long time). De-worming is a 6 week procedure using live shrimp gutloaded or injected with 3 different medications. More info on treating here http://forum.seahorse.org/index.php?showtopic=6097 and here http://forum.seahorse.org/index.php?showtopic=33091&hl=

 

[pledosophy]

Ya Ann's pretty right on as usual, I would also recommend a fresh water dip of the new seahorse for 8 minutes or so, just make sure to temp and pH match the water. If the horse lays flat on the bottom of the container, stop the treatment, if it is thrashing around, well sorry that is what they do when the parasites are exploding inside of there body, bad short term, but better long term. Tough Love.

Good Luck, let us know if we can help.

 

[mollymonticello]

From what I understand, "TR" are WORSE than "WC" in that they have more disease and parasite problems from being packed into such tight conditions together.

They're not all trained to eat frozen, either. They throw some frozen in, and the ones that eat it live and are sold to the pet trade. The ones that don't eat the frozen die, and are sold for the Ancient Chinese medicine trade.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is how "pen-raising" SH started. After it became more difficult to legally harvest live WC SH, in Asia, they were raising them for the Chinese medicine trade, and discovered that they could sell live ones to us as an afterthought and make a little extra.

 

[FishyMel]

Now I'm depressed. Guess..I blew up my seahorse tank before I even started. :-( BTW, she was eating, and today she ate less. Only took 3 mysis this morning and 2 tonight. That isn't enough is it. Other then that, she acts normal. Swims around, hitches, is bright eyed etc. Poop looks normal to me.

 

[ann83]

What are the params in your tank and what temperature are you keeping her at?
The lack of appetite could be an acclimation thing, it could be her going off frozen and preferring whatever live she can find in the tank instead, or it could be the beginning of sickness. Keep an eye out for any white spots or pink or white lesions showing up on her, or any bubble-like spots popping up on her... basically anything different. And keep track of how much she eats. As long as she's still eating, you're okay for now.
That being said, I'd stock up on the basic seahorse medications anyway (I think a list can be found in the library on seahorse.org - maybe in the basic care guide), for sure neomycin and triple sulfa, and also work on getting the deworming medications and QT tank setup so that you can de-worm her (see the links I provided in my last post).
Don't give up yet, you still have one beautiful seahorse on your hands. And we're all here to help you keep her. Any pics?

 

[ann83]

Also, I feel like I've been the big bad guy of doom lately on this forum I really am pulling for you. When I list all the things you need to think about doing, and all the problems that may arise, it isn't to discourage you, its just because I want you to be as prepared as possible to tackle the next challenge. Think of my tone of voice as the likeable coach from the movies thats pushing the kids for their own good Really though, as much as I know the news must suck for you that giving her seahorse tankmates will be rough, if not impossible, you are getting the opportunity to nurse this seahorse back to health, and possibly be one of the only people to be keeping this species successfully at the moment. And there are plenty of fun fishy tankmates and corals that are seahorse safe that you can add down the road. You can even set up ANOTHER seahorse tank next to it! And ANOTHER, and ANOTHER... so many species, so many excuses to set up a new aquarium
And if the worst happens, and she doesn't make it. You can sell off your LR, etc. to someone who doesn't keep SH, sterilize the tank, and set it up brand new.

 

[FishyMel]

So even going fallow from seahorses for a long time wouldn't be enough? I have hundreds of dollars of live rock and live sand. My husband would never allow me to start over with the rock and sand. I have a huge reef tank and a big shark tank. This is my only shot at seahorses.

 

[FishyMel]

Water parameters. 76 degrees water temp. 0 ammonia, saw a smidge of nitrite today, but still less than .3 which is the next level up from 0 on my test kit. nitrate less than 10 (heavily planted aquarium). kh is 10 ph 8ish.

 

[ann83]

Alright, for the Kelloggi girl, try to bring that temperature down to 74 or less. Just 2-3 degrees lower than what you have her at now will increase her chance of survival by alot. The bacteria that typically cause problems actually mutate to more aggressive strains at temps higher than 74, so keeping her under 74 keeps them at bay, and will also slow the growth and reproduction of any parasites. So you can make a huge difference in helping her survive right there. Pointing a fan at the surface of the tank should do it. Just make sure to keep up with buffered FW top offs.
Also, maintain the pH above 8.0. Seahorse appetites seem to be really sensitive to lower pH. That could be your issue right there if your pH dropped a little. Bring it up very slowly a point or two if its at 8.0 or lower and I bet you'll see her appetite increase.
Can't hurt to soak her mysis in garlic and/or beta glucan too to help boost her immune system.
If it comes down to it, I would let the tank sit fishless for 6 weeks (still feeding it though) and then swap out as much rock and livestock as you can with your other tanks. That rock you never use in your reef sump is clean, and the rock from the kelloggi tank shouldn't bother anything but seahorses and pipefish. Going fallow "might" work, if it really is your only shot. But, you'll want to QT any new inhabitants really well in order to get them nice and fat, eating well, used to your routine and your water, and basically have them as little stressed as possible and have their immune systems nice and boosted, before introducing them. A UV-Sterilizer and a chiller (to keep the temp stable at 72-ish) would also boost your chances of success. But we will cross that bridge IF it comes. Right now, you still have a girl in that tank that has a chance of living happily in it.

 

[pledosophy]

Leaving the tank fallow will not improve your chances IMO. In researching vibrio in it's relation to seahorses on and off for the past few years I have documented several examples of seahorses becoming infected after being exposed to an old seahorses tank even after a year of being fallow.

Seahorses are not the only thing that can carry the bacteria, many other lifeforms in your tank such as copepods are also proven carriers.

Your best chance is to lower the temp, and boost the immune system.

Mixing is not impossible, it's just requires a more specialized setup. IMO mixing species carries the same risk as keeping seahorses in a tank that used to hold seahorses that had disease problems. JMO

I'm not saying you can't do it, I still think you can pul the kellogi out, I'm just saying that the factors are affected very little by a fallow period according to my inquiries.

HTH

 

[ann83]

I agree with Pledo, the only reason I suggested laying fallow is because you didn't QT, FW dip, and deworm the Kelloggi before you put it in the display, so it might be prudent to have a fallow period for parasites. I still think it would be prudent to put her in a QT for six weeks and do FW dips and deworming, and let the display sit fishless as soon as you can get the medications rounded up. One way to give you a better chance for adding seahorses later is to at least irradicate the parasites she is carrying (and any that might be in the display) and get her healthy and unstressed. The parasites make her more stressed, and more likely that vibrio will take hold with her and in the tank she is in.
After you get this Kelloggi well (or she passes on), you can do research on mixing species and what things you can do to give yourself a better chance of success adding other seahorses to this tank.

 

[ann83]

How is it going?

 

[FishyMel]

Well..things are going well. Cocopuff is eating well for the past two days. She is very friendly. Likes to wrap on my finger when I am feeding her and now gets excited when she see the syringe coming with her p.e. mysis shrimp. Been watching her poo, and it looks normal. I really see no evidence of parasites. She is alert and happy at the moment and thouroughly entertaining all of us. How much would you expect a 4 inch girl to want to eat at one time? I think my expectations were too high to begin with and there are copepods in the tank that I see her snacking on in addition. Right now she takes anywhere from 2 to 6 p.e. mysis per feeding depending on whether I wake her up to feed or if she is already alert.

 

[ann83]

2-6 PE is probably alright for her, provided you are feeding her at least 2-3 times per day. PE is awefully big. My girls eat less when they eat PE b/c they struggle with it, so I mix hikari into the rotation because its easier to eat so they eat more. If its taking her a couple of snicks to get the PE down, it might not be a bad idea to work a smaller mysis like Hikari into the mix, especially if you don't have the ability to feed her more than twice a day.

 

[mollymonticello]

Awww, I'm really sorry! I totally didn't mean to make you feel bad or like you shouldn't have gotten her. I'm so glad she is doing well. Sounds like she's going to be just fine with your TLC. I do agree with Ann about the temp, though. It will be so much easier for you with a lower temp.

I just get so angry about net-pen raised SH!!! They normally have such bad survival rates, and sellers try to pawn them off as TR or CB. It's wrong!

 

[FishyMel]

Thanks Molly! I agree with you about lying about the tank raised. An ocean pen is hardly a tank! and, the way my girl acted when I first got her, she was barely eating frozen. I really needed to get a decent swirl on the food to convince her to eat it.

Every day she takes food a little easier. We are up to 6 to 8 pe mysis twice a day. I offered it 3x a day but little interest. She just ate less at each feeding but it didn't increase her overall intake. So, I am going to stick to the twice a day schedule. Sometimes it takes 2 snicks to take in the larger PE, but this girl isn't small. I have seen smaller kellogis around town. My girl is an easy 4 inches tall and seems big enough to handle pe. I thought about mixing hikari just to give her a variety of sizes and see which she likes better. I think the pe probably has a better nutritional value since they tend to be big meaty and high in fat and hufas.