Koran angel has HLLE...Please HELP!

[Holsteiner]

ok, let me start off by saying I acquired the angel in this condition, it was moreless "rescued". A friend called me saying he had a friend that bought a Koran angel and couldn't care for it. He was going through a break up and had to move out of his apartment within 2 days and was just going to kill this fish so he could tear down his equipment fast. So, yes....I took this angel since I couldn't see it destroyed. Now I set up a 75 gallon with some live rock just for this angel. It's only temporary but it's the best I could do on short notice. The angel came to me with some HLLE starting on his head. I'm feeding him nori soaked in selcon and garlic constantly. He's also on mysis soaked in selcon and formula two flakes. I have clams and angel formula with sponge for him but no matter what I do or soak them in he won't eat the clams or angel formula. The nitrates are about .25 and phosphates next to nothing. I do have chemipure in the canister but have mixed thoughts about the whole carbon causing HLLE thing. I'm looking for any suggestions anyone may have about what I can do or how I can get him to eat even a more varied diet. I really want this little guy to make it, even though I wasn't planning on having a huge angel and setting up another huge tank in the future Thanks!

 

[Dolmo5000]

Ok, here is my two cents and questions. First, I applaud you for your rescue!!!
1. Did you put the fish in an un-cycled tank? If so, this whole thing will be much much more difficult.
2. Has the HLLE gotten worse since you got the fish? Its a scaring disease. If its not progressing, it might be over, but there will always be scares on the fish. Better than a dead fish.
3. Although you have mixed thoughts on the carbon thing, I have done tons of research as I also just went through a coral beauty dwarf angelfish with HLLE and carbon has really been linked to it.
4. How is its weight? If its not looking thin, or loosing weight as you can see, you might be doing ok with the food. Every fish is different and some are picky. Have some patience.

All and all, keep up the water testing since it seemed like you had to put it in an uncycled tank.

Good luck.

 

[Holsteiner]

Thanks for your reply...to answer your questions:

The angel wasn't put into a totally uncycled tank, I have another large reef tank and another fish only tank and also another friend with a reef tank contributed some water so I had about 50 gallons from those two tanks to use (thank goodness they were due for a water changes anyhow). The tank I put the angel in is barebottom with about 50 pounds of established live rock in there now. Totally not how I would have preferred to start this but the best I could do given the circumstances.

I don't think it's progressing, but it's been such a short amount of time I can't say for sure.

I will pull the carbon out of the canister and give it a try.

It's actually really fat! It has a great appetite and I feed it several times a day...it has nonstop access to the nori soaked in selcon and i've been feeding it as much mysis soaked in garlic and selcon as I can (I figured the protein would be good). I just wish I could get it to eat the angel formula so it would get some of the sponge into it.

I will keep an eye on the water quality, one thing I forgot to mention is other then feeding this fish on a daily basis, the guy really didn't do anything else with the tank so the nitrates in his tank were through the roof! so i'm sure that contributed to the HLLE.

Thanks for the suggestions! i'm really hoping to turn this fish around

 

[MrTuskfish]

Pristine water and a good diet, with vitamins, and TIME will almost always completely cure HLLE.
I think the jury is still out on the carbon/link. I personally don't buy it. Over the years, almost everything has been linked to HLLE: stray voltage, copper diet, certain vitamins, certain foods, nitrate, etc. There are just too many good hobbyists who have used activated carbon for years without seeing HLLE. In fact, I can never remember hearing from any long-time hobbyists on this forum that they used carbon and DID suspect it caused HLLE. The only evidence seems to be one study and several anecdotal accounts. However, it still may be shown to be true. Personally, I'm guessing it comes (mainly) from overall water quality problems; so many of the HLLE fish on this forum have been rescued from neglect, it just seems to a cause.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Thanks for your reply...to answer your questions:

The angel wasn't put into a totally uncycled tank, I have another large reef tank and another fish only tank and also another friend with a reef tank contributed some water so I had about 50 gallons from those two tanks to use (thank goodness they were due for a water changes anyhow). The tank I put the angel in is barebottom with about 50 pounds of established live rock in there now. Totally not how I would have preferred to start this but the best I could do given the circumstances.

I don't think it's progressing, but it's been such a short amount of time I can't say for sure.

I will pull the carbon out of the canister and give it a try.

It's actually really fat! It has a great appetite and I feed it several times a day...it has nonstop access to the nori soaked in selcon and i've been feeding it as much mysis soaked in garlic and selcon as I can (I figured the protein would be good). I just wish I could get it to eat the angel formula so it would get some of the sponge into it.

I will keep an eye on the water quality, one thing I forgot to mention is other then feeding this fish on a daily basis, the guy really didn't do anything else with the tank so the nitrates in his tank were through the roof! so i'm sure that contributed to the HLLE.

Thanks for the suggestions! i'm really hoping to turn this fish around

You cannot cycle a tank with water from a cycled tank. the water isn't cycled, the tank is. The bacteria, that enable the "cycle' to work live in LR, substrate, filter media---not the water column. "Used' water will have a tiny amount of good bacteria, but the amount is insignificant. "Used" water can also add to the problems cycling a new tank, because it contains organics that haven't been processed yet.
Also, although very high nitrates indicate a lack of basic maintenance, high nitrates really don't hurt most fish. But they do indicate an underlying lack of basic cleanliness, which could (IMO) cause HLLE.

 

[Holsteiner]

True...Like I said, not how i've started any of my reef systems in the last 15 years...but this fish was literally a "how can I do this all in 4 hours" type of deal. All the tangs i've had and still have in my reefs and i've never encountered HLLE, so this is a new area for me.

Never really wanted a large angel but I got one now

Thanks for the suggestions and opinions everyone...keep them coming!

 

[MrTuskfish]

I noticed from your first post that you do seem to have some mature LR; if it was moved quickly and you avoided die off, you may be OK--cycle wise. Check ammonia frequently, though. You may need to do a lot of WCs or even use a ammonia-neutralizer; like Ammo-lock or Prime. I don't think the carbon in Chemi-Pure is the type that the HLLE debate involves. I've used Chemi-Pure in all my tanks for years, love it, and have never had a case of HlLLE. Korans are one of the hardiest large angels and he should do fine. Remember, these fish are omnivores, not herbivores as is often thought. Feed plenty of meaty stuff (frozen Angel foods are great) as well as veggies; along with vitamins (like Selcon). HLLE isn't usually as bad as it looks. The fish has probably had it a long time and it will take a while to get it back to near-normal---perhaps months.

 

[jjk_reef00]

First thing is to monitor the water quality (no ammonia, and low nitrates).
Second feed a varied diet and I would ramp up your feedings to 3-4 times a day once your bio-filter can handle it. New life spectrum pellets are great to put into auto feeders for feeding when you are not around. The HLLE scars may or may not go away. I had a 6bar develop HLLE after a copper treatment in qt and he never lost the HLLE. He grew from 4" to 8" very quickly and was fat. I also had a purple tang I acquired with a small case of HLLE and it recovered 100% within 3-4 months.

Just curious how big is your angel? And pics are always appreciated

 

[Holsteiner]

I'd say he's probably about 3 1/2, closer to 4 inches....fat as can be, I feed him several times each day. Actually i'm kind of excited that after I posted this today I managed to dip some clams in garlic and finally got him to eat a little. So right now he's getting mysis, clams, formula two flake and nonstop nori with everything being soaked in selcon and garlic. I would be ecstatic if could get him to eat the frozen angel formula, but hopefully down the road he'll accept it.

He's still in full juvenile color and I just feel so bad because of his head :-(

I'll try to get some pics on my iphone tomorrow and post them. Thanks!

 

[Dolmo5000]

Looks like today has been very informative for you!!!
I'm happy to see that. I mentioned it earlier, but want to make sure I make it clear. This is a fly by the seat of your pants experience. I did essentailly every thing you did with starting a QT from established water. In the long run, it was as stated above, not near enough bacteria to be an established tank. I also learned the hard way that stress on the fish due to sub-par water quality is as important or more than the disease its self. Also, I don't know what it is worth, but with regard to the carbon thing...
The coral beauty I have reacts within minutes to the high quality/ soaked marineland activated carbon I put into the tank. She just goes into complete stress mode. Rub rub rub on the tank walls and swim all around. I really hope all ends well. Again, much respect for the rescue!!!!!!!!! Let us know whats happens. Its a day at a time.