dvmsn
New member
Is it just me or is this the same process we are promoting with vodka dosing http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/06/060612221839.htm
Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
It would be a very similar process. The article cites sugars released by the algae promoting bacterial growth whereas vodka is a fermented product of sugar. I haven't read the article but if the picture provided from the article is correct then the algae needs to be in close contact to cause harm. If you add enough sugar or vodka to your tank you could easily kill the inhabitants from anoxic conditions. So, yes, it would be the same process in regards to promoting bacterial growth. And no, it would be different since you are using a different carbon source.
boxfishpooalot
Active member
I think the very best way to add vodka would be on a slow drip. We dont want a huge amount of bacteria food in the water all at once. Especially beause the vodka can increase bacterial mass on the coral. In other words let the bacs in the water column get it first before the corals symbiotic bacteria gets a chance. Increased bacs living on the coral can kill a coral.
Ive been looking up how bacteria get sugars in the reef. Seagrass beds apparently leak doc. I think most of it gets utilized before the corals on the outer part of the reef get a chance to see it. However, poc would get to them I am guessing.
Ive been looking up how bacteria get sugars in the reef. Seagrass beds apparently leak doc. I think most of it gets utilized before the corals on the outer part of the reef get a chance to see it. However, poc would get to them I am guessing.
dvmsn
New member
I think high flow would also help. I don't think it creates and anoxic condition generally in the tank, but in the area immediately around the coral itself. I don't think the algae was in close proximity with the coral in the study. I think that just shows that vodka dosing needs to be done carefully, which was stressed over and over again in the well written article this month.
I think it is fairly well agreed upon in the scientific community(of which I am NOT a member) that pastel faded coral colors are a sign of poor health. Coral Watch in Australia distributes a Coral Health Chart that is based on the color of corals. Article Unfortunately, this is also the coloration that so many people pine over in this hobby. To each his or her own, just MHO.
The ocean is full of brown corals
I think it is fairly well agreed upon in the scientific community(of which I am NOT a member) that pastel faded coral colors are a sign of poor health. Coral Watch in Australia distributes a Coral Health Chart that is based on the color of corals. Article Unfortunately, this is also the coloration that so many people pine over in this hobby. To each his or her own, just MHO.
The ocean is full of brown corals
You continue at the maintenance dose, which is dosed everyday, unless you start to see nitrates again. At that point you start increasing until they disappear.
It's been a few days how are the tips looking now? I've heard if your water clears considerably in a short period of time you could shock your corals and burn the tips. What's you setup?
Good question. It's has yet to be elucidated. I know glassbox design had a formula on his website for vsv but not vinegar and sugar without vodka.
The question is can bacteria utilize the POCs? And yes, the drip method would probably be the best and is the method I use. Nice constant black sludge from the skimmer.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13163535#post13163535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dvmsn
Unfortunately, this is also the coloration that so many people pine over in this hobby. To each his or her own, just MHO.
The ocean is full of brown corals
The real trick to this hobby is stable levels. If ppl can get pastels and maintain growth more power to them. I however have always preferred the healthier look. And there are many acro species that have dark reds/greens/blues when healthy, not just brown.
fernandokng
New member
Question about dosing vodka and running a refugium with chaeto/mangroves.
Is this recommended? I'm currently growing mangroves, but it's they are still seeds, and the roots are not fully out yet. Will dosing vodka remove so much nutrients from your system that your chaeto/mangroves will starve to death?
Has anyone been able to run both successfully? For example, dose lower than the recommended amount, so that atleast the plants get some nutrients?
Is this recommended? I'm currently growing mangroves, but it's they are still seeds, and the roots are not fully out yet. Will dosing vodka remove so much nutrients from your system that your chaeto/mangroves will starve to death?
Has anyone been able to run both successfully? For example, dose lower than the recommended amount, so that atleast the plants get some nutrients?
glassbox-design
New member
An article worth reading:
Feature Article: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part I
Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Ken and Kelly report on their work on Total Organic Carbon and how it relates to the reef aquarium.
By Ken S. Feldman, Kelly M. Maers
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
Feature Article: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part I
Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Ken and Kelly report on their work on Total Organic Carbon and how it relates to the reef aquarium.
By Ken S. Feldman, Kelly M. Maers
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
stony_corals
New member
What is your alkalinity now? Yes, I'd make certain that you are close to NSW levels of alkalinity. What are your nutrient levels?
stony_corals
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13163535#post13163535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dvmsn
I think high flow would also help. I don't think it creates and anoxic condition generally in the tank, but in the area immediately around the coral itself. I don't think the algae was in close proximity with the coral in the study. I think that just shows that vodka dosing needs to be done carefully, which was stressed over and over again in the well written article this month.
I think it is fairly well agreed upon in the scientific community(of which I am NOT a member) that pastel faded coral colors are a sign of poor health. Coral Watch in Australia distributes a Coral Health Chart that is based on the color of corals. Article Unfortunately, this is also the coloration that so many people pine over in this hobby. To each his or her own, just MHO.
The ocean is full of brown corals
Yeah, it's a fine line.... I think the distinction is whether the corals are growing or not. If they are pastel and growing, I don't think N limitation is effecting the coral (at least completely). It would be interesting for people with pastel colored corals to measure differing amount of N additions (such as aminos) and growth rates.... You could find that theoretical sweet spot....
Whalehead9
New member
I have a few questions about this article.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
1. While the TOC spike written about in this article is clear after feeding, does this this phenomenon occur with vodka and or VSV addtions. Are these apples and oranges?
2. In nature, Corals are not fed once a day leading to a spike in TOC, they feed all or most of the time. Sure Nocturnal plankton is a major food source that is time dependent, but even that takes place over hours. How does a small constant food supply effect TOC?
3. This is a reach, but I am trying to develop an analogy that MIGHT fit. In Humans the intake of high calorie food at one time causes a spike and crash in insulin. Over time these spikes and crashes make insulin receptors less effective, and fat is stored and Diabetes occurs. smaller meals more often with less calories or the "Right kind of food", make these spikes smaller and the receptors remain robust and disease avoided.
Here is the reach. What if the additional carbon sources that we add over time (Vodka, VSV, etc.) create a carbon baseline, helping to maintain more robust bacterial colonies, that can "eat " or break down food particles before a TOC spike occurs? Isn't a spike and crash in TOC ultimately the thing to be avoided? If you had this swing in any other parameter, everyone would point to this as a problem in husbandry?
4. Quote:
"This provocative speculation really raises the question, "Is it necessary to purchase a large "killer" skimmer, or will a more modestly priced and smaller unit serve equivalently for keeping the TOC level in the range acceptable to corals and other inhabitants of our reef aquariums?"
- Couldn't it otherwise be stated that there are not enough carbon inputs to maintain a carbon baseline to prevent a rapid decline in TOC? Isn't stability what we strive for?
I am greedily anticipating part two in this series. Any and all please respond. I think that there is much to discuss.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
1. While the TOC spike written about in this article is clear after feeding, does this this phenomenon occur with vodka and or VSV addtions. Are these apples and oranges?
2. In nature, Corals are not fed once a day leading to a spike in TOC, they feed all or most of the time. Sure Nocturnal plankton is a major food source that is time dependent, but even that takes place over hours. How does a small constant food supply effect TOC?
3. This is a reach, but I am trying to develop an analogy that MIGHT fit. In Humans the intake of high calorie food at one time causes a spike and crash in insulin. Over time these spikes and crashes make insulin receptors less effective, and fat is stored and Diabetes occurs. smaller meals more often with less calories or the "Right kind of food", make these spikes smaller and the receptors remain robust and disease avoided.
Here is the reach. What if the additional carbon sources that we add over time (Vodka, VSV, etc.) create a carbon baseline, helping to maintain more robust bacterial colonies, that can "eat " or break down food particles before a TOC spike occurs? Isn't a spike and crash in TOC ultimately the thing to be avoided? If you had this swing in any other parameter, everyone would point to this as a problem in husbandry?
4. Quote:
"This provocative speculation really raises the question, "Is it necessary to purchase a large "killer" skimmer, or will a more modestly priced and smaller unit serve equivalently for keeping the TOC level in the range acceptable to corals and other inhabitants of our reef aquariums?"
- Couldn't it otherwise be stated that there are not enough carbon inputs to maintain a carbon baseline to prevent a rapid decline in TOC? Isn't stability what we strive for?
I am greedily anticipating part two in this series. Any and all please respond. I think that there is much to discuss.
It's a good article with a lot of unanswered questions. According to the article, "... the Eric/Glassbox-Design protocol is equivalent to raising the aquarium water by about 1.1 ppm of C at the maintenance dose. The Rohwer carbon dosing values that led to coral mortality over a 30-day exposure were in the range 2 - 10 ppm of C. So, it appears that the Eric/Glassbox-Design recipe does not leave much margin for error in dosing levels; overdosing by 2-3X might lead to coral mortality."
Summation, there is a possibility that placing too much DOC of one type into the system can result in coral mortality. Eric's protocol actually has three sources and as such may be 3x lower than that stated of the author so there is a margin of 6-9x. But that's just looking at it differently. It may be TOC is the most important component for coral mortality and then it would be 2-3x.
You're talking about Type II diabetes. By high calorie diet you mean simple sugars and not complex carbohydrates and protein. And reduced risk is also from regular exercise. So I don't know if I would try to equate the two.
A skimmer may serve additional functions such as gas exchange and stability of pH and alk. Not having an adequate one may lead to those issues unless a stable equilibrium is found.
In regards to TOC stability. Notice the authors did a 17% water change before measuring TOC (fig 3). One question would be whether the water change caused the initial spike 24hrs post. But even so, if you look at Table 1 you see that TOC levels range in nature from 0.47 to 1.86ppm. The authors aquarium stayed within those params so I don't know if I would state the TOC is unstable.
Another question is on their ORP measurement. I've never seen ORP at 480mV in an aquarium and was always under the impression pushing past 450mV was trouble.
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I've been dosing sugar close to a month and constantly getting a below <1mg reading from my salifert kit. the colours on my sps are slowly appearing but a tad pale which I'm compansating with heavy feeding.
However, after all these dosing, my sandbed have started to accumlate a layer of luminous green algae which I never had never encountered before. It looks like cyno but instead of reddishbown, this agale is luminous green. Can anybody advise what this is and how to prevent this from re-ocurring?
However, after all these dosing, my sandbed have started to accumlate a layer of luminous green algae which I never had never encountered before. It looks like cyno but instead of reddishbown, this agale is luminous green. Can anybody advise what this is and how to prevent this from re-ocurring?
bosborn1
In Memoriam
I've been dosing the GBD v/s/v system for over two months now. I have a net volume of 240 gallons and my high point dosing was 9.5ml per day. During the course of the dosing I think I kept the number high for too long. I had a bad Nitarte test kit. Now my nutrients are undectable by titration of colorimeter. I dropped the dose down to 2ml per day.
Heres the problem, I've got cyano like crazy and my pH won't get above 7.8 anymore. What do you guys think I should do? My colors are fading so I believe that I am at a ULNS level. I am affraid to start AA dosing with the cyano the way it is.
Thanks
Scott
Heres the problem, I've got cyano like crazy and my pH won't get above 7.8 anymore. What do you guys think I should do? My colors are fading so I believe that I am at a ULNS level. I am affraid to start AA dosing with the cyano the way it is.
Thanks
Scott
Try to cut down on the sugar and see if that helps out. It's more or less a guess at this point but when I was playing around with v/s/v I noticed the same cyano issue. Vinegar doesn't seem to do it, vodka doesn't, and low amounts of sugar, but I'm thinking higher amounts of sugar or the three in combo may cause this issue.
glassbox-design
New member
Hi Scott,
Cyano can use organic carbon so it is possible the VSV is fueling it. Ethanol and acetate can be utilized, but IME it does seem to be more partial to sugar.
Cut back the sugar amount in the recipe and reduce the overall amount of VSV to 1.5ml. Watch how the tank reacts and adjust from there. Siphon out as much Cyano as you can during water changes and it should take care of itself. If it is really a nuisance, you can do a lights out treatment.
Zeo users claim success by using Coral Snow in conjunction with ZeoBak to eliminate Cyano. I cannot vouch for its effectiveness but it may be worth investigating.
Regarding PH, are you running AC? Try opening up a window. During the hot months PH suppression is common.
HTH.
melev
Well-known member
Just completed my 9th week of dosing. Nitrates are definitely coming down. Using my Salifert kit, it looks optimistically to be 10ppm, maaaybe 15ppm. Phosphate is 0, but I had to treat my tank with Blue Life's Phosphate Control when I got back because my son overfed the tank while I was in Altanta for MACNA.
My skimmate still doesn't look anywhere near black to me. Here's a picture from a few weeks ago, when I was posting a comparison of skimmate color from two different skimmers in my system.
I've not run any GFO in my system in months, just relying on skimming, vodka, and a couple of big water changes. My current dose is 6 ml per day, and I'm going to stay at this figure and hopefully watch the nitrates drop more before switching to my maintenance dose of 3 ml per day. I'm still using the same bottle of Vodka I purchased for this treatment, which probably cost me $14. It is 80 proof.
My skimmate still doesn't look anywhere near black to me. Here's a picture from a few weeks ago, when I was posting a comparison of skimmate color from two different skimmers in my system.
I've not run any GFO in my system in months, just relying on skimming, vodka, and a couple of big water changes. My current dose is 6 ml per day, and I'm going to stay at this figure and hopefully watch the nitrates drop more before switching to my maintenance dose of 3 ml per day. I'm still using the same bottle of Vodka I purchased for this treatment, which probably cost me $14. It is 80 proof.
Marc, has the skimmate changed in color at all? Almost everyone I've talked to reports a darkening, if not black, skimmate. You may just skim a bit lighter than others though. With a fish tank like yours, I can understand. I have a few questions on your system;
Do you have any plans to do water changes in the future if your nitrates stay low?
Have you noticed any positive increase in coral coloration?
Do you have any plans to do water changes in the future if your nitrates stay low?
Have you noticed any positive increase in coral coloration?
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