Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[macreefster]

a lot to ingest on this thread, but it's made for great reading. i am thinking of taking the vodka plunge, but not sure i need to. my nitrates are between 2 and 5ppm (salifert) but i dont know what my phosphate level is. i am running GFO in a reactor though. i only have two slight issues i'd like to improve in my tank and i wonder if vodka dosing might help. i have a bit of a bryopsis problem (cause because i didnt change my DI soon enough) and some sps coral browning. i am in the process of increasing my MG to 1800 (at 1550 now) to hopefully kill the bryopsis and i removed all my anthias to reduce the amount of feeding.... i am thinking my corals are too well fed causing some to turn a rich brown with great PE and growth.

so.....three questions.

1) might vodka help with both the bryopsis and coral coloration?
2) is a hanna meter the only reliable way to test for phosphate, or it just monitoring NO3 enough?
3) is an octopus dnw200 skimmer enough for a 100gal water volume with vodka dosing?

thanks for your input.

 

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14614782#post14614782 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by macreefster
a lot to ingest on this thread, but it's made for great reading. i am thinking of taking the vodka plunge, but not sure i need to. my nitrates are between 2 and 5ppm (salifert) but i dont know what my phosphate level is. i am running GFO in a reactor though. i only have two slight issues i'd like to improve in my tank and i wonder if vodka dosing might help. i have a bit of a bryopsis problem (cause because i didnt change my DI soon enough) and some sps coral browning. i am in the process of increasing my MG to 1800 (at 1550 now) to hopefully kill the bryopsis and i removed all my anthias to reduce the amount of feeding.... i am thinking my corals are too well fed causing some to turn a rich brown with great PE and growth.

so.....three questions.

1) might vodka help with both the bryopsis and coral coloration?
2) is a hanna meter the only reliable way to test for phosphate, or it just monitoring NO3 enough?
3) is an octopus dnw200 skimmer enough for a 100gal water volume with vodka dosing?

thanks for your input.

1) potentially with coloration, bryopsis doubtful. Most 'nuisance' algae is perfectly capable of living in low nutrients.... On the coloration part, if your corals have the genetic ability to exhibit colorful pigments, are healthy, and have good lighting, yes.
2) No, it's not. I have heard good things about the Deltec/Merck and Elos phosphate test kits.
3) I can not say, I've not used that before.

 

[melev]

It took 8 months (7/14/08 to 3/17/09) to do this:

This is a brand new test kit too. Perhaps my other one wasn't accurate since I had to actually puncture Bottle #2 to get it to let drops out. I may have been adding incorrectly sized drops all this time, wondering why my No3 wouldn't drop.

 

[CleveYank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14489447#post14489447 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul_PSU
I had been dosing vodka with Biodigest and developed an outbreak of HA. I am still testing zero for Nitrates on 3 different test kits. My phosphates are showing zero but on an API kit. I have not been able to test on a Hanna Meter. I also run GFO. I'm kind of at a loss right now. The HA is all over my rocks. I am manually removing it. I esd dosing 6ml of vodka per day. I have stopped to see if it makes a difference with the HA. I don't know if maybe I should just dose vodka and not the Biodigest. I don't overfeed my tank either.

Paul,

I read your Hair Algae issue and skimmed over the rest to your fish tank size of a 75 and looked at your listed fish (bioload). If your fish listing in your profile and tank size are correct. I'd venture to say that your most likely over the bioload limit for a 75 with vodka and or biodigest dosing or not. You're going to continue to battle hair algae.

What's most likely going on is your Hair Algae is absorbing what isn't being taken up by the vodka dosing and protein skimmer. The Biodigest is probably just fueling the fire. I believe that until you get rid of some fish and or add a large sump to increase overall system volume and or large refugium or just upgrade to a 180 or humongous skimmer setup or something you are going to keep having a losing hair algae battle. Without seeing the system and the test kits and such...just what seems to jump out on the top of the suspect list. Been wrong before, but if your posted tank size and fish count are correct that's what I'd think was going on. Just a thought.

Oh and if you added some old bulbs or low current areas or cleanup crew that is not up to par or maybe RO/DI output TDS shifted a tad high on you (had that happen myself) and boom you've got run away hair pulling out hair algae issues.

Hope you figure it out to dial it back in.

 

[Mr..Tang]

Do you guys turn off carbon/phosphate reactors? I have been dosing now for 6 weeks. I started with NO3 at 20 and it steadily dropped to undectable levels. But I left my reactors running. Skimmate black and the water is crystal clear. Although I have not seen a change in my sps

 

[Mr..Tang]

Oh yea I was dosing 5.0ml daily until NO3 dropped to zero and now I dose the same amount every other day. Total water is 208gal

 

[melev]

Yes, we run carbon, but most of us don't need GFO I think. It would better to dose half the dosage daily instead of every other day. It is a fuel and food for bacteria after all.

 

[Mr..Tang]

that's a good point. I wanted to also say that I just started dosing Koral Color, CoralAmino, and Marine-C. Twenty six drops each twice a week.

Marc, did you enjoy visiting my buddy's store while in Raleigh? The Fishroom. Good people there!

 

[bshumake]

I have a question for yall.
I've been dosing Biodigest and Vodka for about 3 weeks. After the first few days my wife noticed a "rotten cabbage" smell in the house. I can't smell very well so it took another week for me to notice it. My tank turned hazy and my skimmer pulled tan colored stuff (i'm assuming bacteria) out. The first few days skimmate was DARK. And after that not as dark and mostly brown.
I stopped vodka dosing and the haze and smell cleared in a few days.
So, what was the smell, what was causing it, and how can I avoid it in the future?
As a side note, I began dosing sugar (1 TBL SP) one day, and vinegar (10ml) the other. Sofar, no problems yet.

 

[Mr..Tang]

The only smell I have observed from dosing vodka is the distillery smell that forms in the sumproom. But to me, that smells good!!

 

[Burlingtonz]

Marc. Congrats on the success. Keep us posted on your maintenance doseage for future references to see if you maintain the NO3 zero reading. What's the PO4 reading? Hopifully the same 0. Thanks for the Spreadsheet.
Peter

 

[Burlingtonz]

I started on March 13 I'n hoping this will help my obsession with high nitrates. I guess I have to believe.

 

[melev]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14632944#post14632944 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr..Tang
that's a good point. I wanted to also say that I just started dosing Koral Color, CoralAmino, and Marine-C. Twenty six drops each twice a week.

Marc, did you enjoy visiting my buddy's store while in Raleigh? The Fishroom. Good people there!

Yes, that was a nice store with plenty of critters to observe and enjoy. Because of the way the store is set up, you can stand in front of the tank and discover stuff time after time because there is so much to see. The owner seemed like a great guy too.

Regarding your other dosings, I don't have any opinions other than to say that you need to watch your tank closely and follow those directions closely.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14632963#post14632963 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bshumake
I have a question for yall.
I've been dosing Biodigest and Vodka for about 3 weeks. After the first few days my wife noticed a "rotten cabbage" smell in the house. I can't smell very well so it took another week for me to notice it. My tank turned hazy and my skimmer pulled tan colored stuff (i'm assuming bacteria) out. The first few days skimmate was DARK. And after that not as dark and mostly brown.
I stopped vodka dosing and the haze and smell cleared in a few days.
So, what was the smell, what was causing it, and how can I avoid it in the future?
As a side note, I began dosing sugar (1 TBL SP) one day, and vinegar (10ml) the other. Sofar, no problems yet.

Did you clean your skimmer every single day? Rotting skimmate is pungent. That includes the riser inside the cup.

You may have overdosed the vodka. How much were you putting in each day for what water volume? And what proof is the vodka?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14633608#post14633608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Burlingtonz
Marc. Congrats on the success. Keep us posted on your maintenance doseage for future references to see if you maintain the NO3 zero reading. What's the PO4 reading? Hopifully the same 0. Thanks for the Spreadsheet.
Peter

I tested PO4 and I think it was between 03 and .1 ppm. I took a picture, but didn't post it. It wasn't perfectly clear, but it was low. I may take a water sample with me to DaveJ's since I'm heading over there in a few minutes.

Take your time dosing. This is not a to-be-rushed method, and while we may be impatient, the livestock in our tank may not be on the same schedule. Better to under-dose your tank than to lose corals or fish, right?

 

[bshumake]

Did you clean your skimmer every single day? Rotting skimmate is pungent. That includes the riser inside the cup.

You may have overdosed the vodka. How much were you putting in each day for what water volume? And what proof is the vodka?

I did clean skimmer cup daily. I was thinking the smell was coming from the cup but I cleaned it every day. Riser and all.
The vodka was 80 proof (Sky vodka) 5ml into 180G daily.

Thanks Mark

 

[melev]

Well, 5ml sounds okay, but you said 180g and I'm thinking your tank really only has 120g of water (net vs. gross) if you are following the article's measuring process. My reef is more likely at 255g of water volume and I've been dosing at 15ml for at least two months. My numbers are where they should be, but the smell was notable if I didn't stay on top of my skimmer cleanings.

If your collection cup has a lot of holes like my Euroreef, I don't have a solution, but if you have one or two holes, you may be able to create a gizmo filled with carbon to absorb the odor as it passes through and out into the air you breathe.

 

[macreefster]

ok....i took the plunge today and started dosing .4ml vodka. i took the gfo out of my phosphate reactor and replaced it with rox 0.8 carbon. i am reading now i should add bacteria cultures, like microbacter7 or the like, to ensure more diversity in bacteria strains. what else should i be dosing? thanks for the help.

 

[Paul_PSU]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14631926#post14631926 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CleveYank
Paul,

I read your Hair Algae issue and skimmed over the rest to your fish tank size of a 75 and looked at your listed fish (bioload). If your fish listing in your profile and tank size are correct. I'd venture to say that your most likely over the bioload limit for a 75 with vodka and or biodigest dosing or not. You're going to continue to battle hair algae.

What's most likely going on is your Hair Algae is absorbing what isn't being taken up by the vodka dosing and protein skimmer. The Biodigest is probably just fueling the fire. I believe that until you get rid of some fish and or add a large sump to increase overall system volume and or large refugium or just upgrade to a 180 or humongous skimmer setup or something you are going to keep having a losing hair algae battle. Without seeing the system and the test kits and such...just what seems to jump out on the top of the suspect list. Been wrong before, but if your posted tank size and fish count are correct that's what I'd think was going on. Just a thought.

Oh and if you added some old bulbs or low current areas or cleanup crew that is not up to par or maybe RO/DI output TDS shifted a tad high on you (had that happen myself) and boom you've got run away hair pulling out hair algae issues.

Hope you figure it out to dial it back in.

I see your point but I'm not sure I understand how Biodigest is fueling the issue. Everything I have read says it should help with a diversity in bacteria. I never looked at what I had as a high bioload on a 100gal (75DT/30sump) total system volume. If my bioload was an issue wouldn't I be having Nitrate issues also? Not debating just trying to understand better. I appreciate the input.. I will be upgrading to a 150gal soon so if bioload is a problem, that should help some. Also, i thought the vodka dosing would allow us to either feed more or have a higher bioload? It just confuses me that phosphates are my only issue.

 

[Paul_PSU]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14613944#post14613944 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
hmmm....Unfortunately, what may (only a *may*) be happening is that the HA is masking what your tank is really producing (in N and P). HA are very efficient at uptake of nutrients.... It could be that your HA and bacteria are competing for nutrients, and given the amount of HA, it may be outcompeting. I've dosed both vodka and Biodigest and never had hair algae.

I'd continue to manually remove as much as you can. Do you know what kind of HA it is? Do you have any rabbitfish or tangs? Urchins are very good as well (don't seem to be nearly as picky as fish are), but they can act like bulldosers.....

My nitrates were zero long before any HA. I do have a purple tank, foxface and a barred goby along with a starry blenny to eat the algae. they do, but not enough. It was like a switch just turned on when my bryopsis died off. I honestly have not been having any more HA in the tank. I am making progress but slowly. The places that I do have it the HA is too short to pull out.

 

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14632963#post14632963 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bshumake
I have a question for yall.
I've been dosing Biodigest and Vodka for about 3 weeks. After the first few days my wife noticed a "rotten cabbage" smell in the house. I can't smell very well so it took another week for me to notice it. My tank turned hazy and my skimmer pulled tan colored stuff (i'm assuming bacteria) out. The first few days skimmate was DARK. And after that not as dark and mostly brown.
I stopped vodka dosing and the haze and smell cleared in a few days.
So, what was the smell, what was causing it, and how can I avoid it in the future?
As a side note, I began dosing sugar (1 TBL SP) one day, and vinegar (10ml) the other. Sofar, no problems yet.

Use a little less vodka. The smell of the skimmate never goes away but the amount you pull out will decrease over time.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14632304#post14632304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr..Tang
Oh yea I was dosing 5.0ml daily until NO3 dropped to zero and now I dose the same amount every other day. Total water is 208gal

Sounds like you've got a good plan on how to keep nitrates/phosphates in check.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14639070#post14639070 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul_PSU
I see your point but I'm not sure I understand how Biodigest is fueling the issue. Everything I have read says it should help with a diversity in bacteria. I never looked at what I had as a high bioload on a 100gal (75DT/30sump) total system volume. If my bioload was an issue wouldn't I be having Nitrate issues also? Not debating just trying to understand better. I appreciate the input.. I will be upgrading to a 150gal soon so if bioload is a problem, that should help some. Also, i thought the vodka dosing would allow us to either feed more or have a higher bioload? It just confuses me that phosphates are my only issue.

If you only have phosphates as an issue, you will need to look at water changes and GFO to get them back in order. There is a degree in which nitrates/phosphates/carbon need to be. Obviously, your phosphates were higher than what bacteria can consume. Over time I would venture to guess this will go lower, but by how much and how long it would take, I cannot say.

 

[melev]

Paul, have you considered a one time dose to knock PO4 down so the vodka can keep it down? Phosbuster Pro or Blue Life's Phosphate Control work overnight to drop it from what it is to zero, usually by morning (I dose late at night when the fish sleep). I've had to dose it once since mid-December. What is the current measurable level in your tank?