Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[melev]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15215944#post15215944 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DeathWish302
I've been battling cyano for the past 1.5 yrs. I've tried growing macroalgae in the sump with the melev-style 13W 6500K CF, but the chaeto and red gracilia (most recent attempt) slowly die off after several months. I've always used RO/DI and IO salt, so no major input of nutrients or excessive NO3 PO4 from the source water (some from IO). The reef display has a Tomato clown pair, dozen snails & hermits, a fair amount of sps colonies/frags and several bunches of zoas and rics. I truly have a low bioload, as my skimmer is not pullling the 1-5 cups of skimmate as others. I might have 1 cup every day or two. I run no filter sock and some detritus builds up in the first sump compartment (skimmer).

I've started the vodka dosing regimen on the lowest end (25gallon) described in the Reefkeeoing article. How can I get the 'good' bacteria kick-started to eliminate this cyano?

My levels are as follows:
NO3 = 0-5ppm (API currently but ELOS kit coming)
PO4 = 0ppm (API currently but ELOS kit coming)
Alk = 8.5dKh (API)
Ca = 440ppm (API)
Mg = 1320ppm (Salifert)

Since I'm not trusting the API test kits for NO3 and PO4, I've decided to have a second opinion by ELOS. The questions I have are in no particular order and I've read most of the Vodka threads and articles and find nothing reassuring. These are the questions I have after 1 week of dosing to 0.2mL in 60 gallons total system volume.

1) Since my cyano has increased with vodka dosing, is there any cure for this besides a pricey additive like Zeozym? Will the cyano slowly lose the battle to other native bacteria in the tank after further dosing?

2)If I cannot continue dosing due to the cyano, what could be causing the die off of the macroalgae?

3)Is PO4 a necessary element in larger qty for the carbon dosing to work?

4)What is the consensus on a better/best NO3 & PO4 test kit?

5)Has anyone found that some of the additives used in the NeoZeo & Zeovit methods yield better results while carbon dosing? The vodka system seems similar to these but excluding the zeolite reactor.

My pondering continues...............

A few thoughts:

What kind of skimmer are you using? How often do you clean it? Your Interests seem to indicate it is a DIY skimmer; perhaps it isn't a good enough design?

This is the bulb I recommend:

From this site: http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/page/001/PROD/Reflectors/1P381951

If your tank is low nutrient, macro won't thrive but it may live. The extra boost of that particular bulb may help, as it has an 85w output (linked above).

With the NO3 and PO4 that low, I don't see the reason to dose vodka personally. Are you wanting to do so so that you have the abliity to feed more heavily?

Vodka may fuel cyano growth, or keep it exactly at the level it is. You can siphon it out, blow it off rocks with a turkey baster, etc. You can treat the tank with "Chemi Clean" or "RedSlime Control", or you could leave the tank lights off for "Three Days of Darkness," as discussed here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-02/editor/index.php

 

[DeathWish302]

A few thoughts:

What kind of skimmer are you using? How often do you clean it? Your Interests seem to indicate it is a DIY skimmer; perhaps it isn't a good enough design?

DIY cleaned every other day (when not traveling for work). I've questioned the design before. If my NO3 & PO4 levels are truly as low as the API test kits measure, the volume of dissolved organics may not be enough to have this skimmer perform at the peak. I've read that an oversized skimmer can be as bad as an undersized unit.... I'm still debating if the jump on a skimmer will cure this problem. If I do move on a skimmer, it will likely be a conical (I-Tech or WM).

If your tank is low nutrient, macro won't thrive but it may live. The extra boost of that particular bulb may help, as it has an 85w output (linked above).

Have you noted differences with the 6100K bulbs similar to that style at HD/Lowe's versus the one you noted? The one I'm using is the 13W ~ 65W from HD.

With the NO3 and PO4 that low, I don't see the reason to dose vodka personally. Are you wanting to do so so that you have the abliity to feed more heavily?

I really do like the water clarity as of the past few days. The fact is I'm tired of cyano and the brown algae film on the glass.... :mad2:

I thought Vodka dosing could cure the cyano/algae and allow heavier feeding.

Vodka may fuel cyano growth, or keep it exactly at the level it is. You can siphon it out, blow it off rocks with a turkey baster, etc. You can treat the tank with "Chemi Clean" or "RedSlime Control", or you could leave the tank lights off for "Three Days of Darkness,"....

I've definitely viewed the increased growth... I've siphoned in the past and it returns in 12-24hrs, the turkey baster routine quickly turned annoying, and quite frankly I fear adding chemicals that I now nothing about. I will look into the redslime control additive.

As for 3 days of darkness, I randomly switch off the lights when it calls for rain to maybe mimic storm conditions in the tank. I'll leave the light off for 1-3 days at a time also. I would say out of 1 month (30 days) I leave the lights off at least 5-7 days. I've found this increases coral coloration and growth more than any food/additive I have tried. I cannot quantitatively prove this claim, but has viewed a definite increase in coloration of new branches and faster growth after fragging.

I may try the MB7 and the Redslime Control first then move onto the idea of trying another skimmer. Sure wish I wasn't breeding the tomato clowns right now, as I would boost the fish bioload to see if that boosted skimmer performance.......

Thanks Melev for your input as always!

 

[melev]

If you can leave the lights off for all three days in a row, the skimmer should be pull out a significant load that third day. On Day 4 you turn the lights back on, perhaps not the full day's worth... I was a bit concerned about that when I did it. A couple of 1" frags perished, but my tank was 100% cyano free, all four walls were completely clean and clear, the sand was white, and the water clarity was unbelievable. And you didn't use any chemicals.

I only did this once, and it worked as promised.

If you don't believe your kits, you can always take a sample to a local club member / hobbyist to have them measure the water with their kits, and have your LFS do the same. Between the three different testers, you should have a good idea of how your water is measuring.

 

[Burlingtonz]

Well I believe its time to give this threat a little bump. I have been dosing since March of this year. The film on my glass has started to decrease with a thickness of the film becoming less noticeable. I was completing my bi-weekly test results and have had some good results regarding PO4. They are at 0ppm but Nitrates are still at 20ppm. Actually my Nitrates have been 20ppm since I started this project back in March. I am hopiful that my Nitrates will soon follow suit. Question, do the NO3 come down on a gradual basis or do they just disappear to 0? I am at 9.5ml twice per day with 225 gallon of total water volume.

 

[Safedad]

Hi Nitrates and Algae and Cyano

Hi Nitrates and Algae and Cyano

Last summer I switched to the Prodibio system. It know my NO3 right on down. I got an outbreak of hair algae so I started dosing Vodka. I am currently hair algae free and dosing 4ml 2X a day in my 90 gal display +30gal sump. While all that worked out fine the cyano came along for the ride. I have been using Zeozym for about six months and it has kept it in check.
Prodibio - $50 for 6 months Bioptim, $50 for 6 months Reefbooster, and $50 for Bio digest for 12 mo,
Zeozym was on sale last December when I bought 250gm. I am placing my second order this wkend and it is about $60. In my maintenance mode it should last me about a year.
Hope this helps,
Bob

 

[kmckay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15443082#post15443082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Burlingtonz
Well I believe its time to give this threat a little bump. I have been dosing since March of this year. The film on my glass has started to decrease with a thickness of the film becoming less noticeable. I was completing my bi-weekly test results and have had some good results regarding PO4. They are at 0ppm but Nitrates are still at 20ppm. Actually my Nitrates have been 20ppm since I started this project back in March. I am hopiful that my Nitrates will soon follow suit. Question, do the NO3 come down on a gradual basis or do they just disappear to 0? I am at 9.5ml twice per day with 225 gallon of total water volume.

How are you measuring PO4? If it is truely < 0.00 (undetectable by a photometer), then you may be phosphate limited. The bacterial proliferation that forms the biochemical basis of a carbon dosing scheme requires both NO3 and PO4 to be present. If, however, PO4 is actually present, then you may need to give it some more time. I had to dose V for 6 months at a dose of up to 24 ml before my NO3 started falling. Once it began dropping, it was down to <0.2 very quickly. That's my experience, FWIW.

 

[Burlingtonz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15447495#post15447495 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kmckay
How are you measuring PO4? If it is truely < 0.00 (undetectable by a photometer), then you may be phosphate limited. The bacterial proliferation that forms the biochemical basis of a carbon dosing scheme requires both NO3 and PO4 to be present. If, however, PO4 is actually present, then you may need to give it some more time. I had to dose V for 6 months at a dose of up to 24 ml before my NO3 started falling. Once it began dropping, it was down to <0.2 very quickly. That's my experience, FWIW.

I am measuring with a API PO4 kit. I have been using this kit since the start of the dosing procedure. My highest level was 0.5ppm which did cause a cyano outbreak on my sand only and nothing on the rocks. I started to see the cyano start to disappear and that's when I discovered the drop in PO4. Now I know the API kit isn't the best but the results did show a hugh difference. I do have 3 different types of NO3 API Saliferts and TM kits. All of these show the same amount of NO3 sitting at 20ppm. Starting this Saturday I will be at 10ml twice daily. I have been dosing now for 5 months and have increased my doseage by 1.0ml per week. If I have your luck I should have my results by Labor Day. Thanks for your feedback Kris

 

[stagcrazy]

at what week did u guys start seeing dramatic changes in your setup as far as seeing hair algea/cyano disapear and corals to start thriving.

 

[Burlingtonz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15448483#post15448483 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stagcrazy
at what week did u guys start seeing dramatic changes in your setup as far as seeing hair algea/cyano disapear and corals to start thriving.

For me it has been in the last 4 weeks. Water is very clear. Fish are fine and eating well. Corals have good days and bad days because I find the color of the corals fade but come back other days. Overall if the dosing is completed at a slow pace the benefits certainly out weight any small issues that show up. I believe my corals will start thriving as soon as the NO3 levels start to fall off.

 

[melev]

Kris, it took seven months before my nitrates finally began to drop. Then they dropped quickly and completely.

 

[Burlingtonz]

Marc what was your maximum dose and what is your currant maintenance dose. I know you slow drip your carbon dosing, but I place the vodka in the return flow pump area.

 

[melev]

When I finally reached 15ml, that is when the nitrates dropped. They stayed down, so I reduced it to 10ml per day. I started feeding even more heavily, and they have begun to rise again. I've been dosing 12.5ml for the past three weeks but NO3 hasn't dropped. I may have to get back up to 15ml per day to see them drop back to 0.

They are current under 5ppm.

 

[kmckay]

Marc, interesting that we saw a decrease around the same time. I have speculated that perhaps it took so long for my system to respond was because I had a mature RDSB. Do you have a DSB as well?

Burlingtonz, I have found my hanna photometer to be a great tool to help me tweak my feeding and vodka dose. Old hands like Marc can probably tweak their dose by observing subtle responses in their aquarium inhabitants. I don't think photometers are necessary to dose vodka, but IME they allow someone like me to maximize the benefit of vodka dosing.

 

[melev]

Yes, my reef and my refugium have a DSB of 4" to 6".

 

[schminksbro]

I have dosed sugar for quite a while but it seems recently I may have overdosed. I have a brown bacteria mat on the ssb. I have stopped dosing and I ordered Brightwells neozeo stones, microbac7, and aminos. I plan on using vodka for the carbon source. My question is will the brown bacteria work itself out? Will the microbac7 help or make it worse?

 

[schminksbro]

Anyone have experience with this?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15451941#post15451941 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by schminksbro
I have dosed sugar for quite a while but it seems recently I may have overdosed. I have a brown bacteria mat on the ssb. I have stopped dosing and I ordered Brightwells neozeo stones, microbac7, and aminos. I plan on using vodka for the carbon source. My question is will the brown bacteria work itself out? Will the microbac7 help or make it worse?

 

[Lucas9]

Dosing amount

Dosing amount

So what is your maintenance dosage?

I am dosing 5ml (twice a day) of 80 proof vodka to ~200G total volume (for about 1 week now) and my long hair algea still loves my fishtank (fish only) very much.

 

[aquariumclown]

Has anyone experienced lowered ph when dosing for 3 months or more? Mine dropped from 8.0 to 7.8 over the last couple of weeks.

 

[Psionicdragon]

Anyone experience white snot?

 

[Genetics]

Yes, are you relatively new to dosing? White stringy material can sometimes occur in the tank but most users report that they find it growing in their sumps or in canisters with filtration media. If you have detectable nitrates and phosphates this may be a little over growth from the dosing resulting in these stringy substances. Once your tank is in balance and the nitrate/phosphate levels have decreased the amount of stringy snot should also subside.