Let's talk temperate tank basics

[chrisstie]

There are some amazing cold water reefs on RC and some great people who are interested in keeping them. What I find to be lacking in this corner of the hobby is any actual guide to setting something like this up.

There are a few basics, for example, using acrylic instead of glass to prevent the tank from sweating when its in a warmer room, but perhaps not a definitive guide.

Do you use live rock and sand? Most of the tanks I've seen have had pebbles and some rock but it seems like a different creature. Lighting isn't important for photosynthesis, but what is recommended to view tank specimens and keep a feeding schedule? Is there a recommended chiller to keep the MUCH cooler temps these tanks require?

I don't have hardly any answers but was hoping people who do keep these tanks would be willing to pitch in and help build a temperate reef keeping .. (for dummies?) type of thread. I have great interest in this and eventually will be where I can collect my own specimens too. I'd like to think that someday I could come back to this guide and help make my own contributions.

 

[captivefrag]

Re: Let's talk temperate tank basics

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15281111#post15281111 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrisstie
There are a few basics, for example, using acrylic instead of glass to prevent the tank from sweating when its in a warmer room, but perhaps not a definitive guide.
[/B]

Acrylic is a better insulator, yes, but you still need much thicker tank walls than for warm water. A 3/8" acrylic tank will still condensate when filled with cold water.

 

[chrisstie]

It is my understanding from reading about some peoples setups that they use at least 1/2" acrylic, if not larger.

I wonder if there is a set size based on ambient room temperature to prevent sweating?

Some tanks I see using what look like pebbles for substrate, is there a recommended medium for temperate substrate? What about live rock? Does it perform the same function or do the helpful bacteria living in it remain resistant to the cold?

 

[epiphanus]

this should help you get started...


http://aquadaily.com/2009/04/03/could-coldwater-marine-fishkeeping/#more-1122


http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/3


http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/4


http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/5

 

[Beaun]

A temperate tank is not nessisarily cold water. I run what I consider to be a temperate system, but it stays in the upper 60's so I have no issues wit sweating. On my stock glass tank. That being said, acrylic is best if you are going to be using a chiller for 60 degrees and bellow.

Turnover rate is an important thing to look at, 15x turnover is something you should be shooting for with temperate systems. Random flow is also a concern, a wavemaker or a SCWD type device are good.

 

[JHemdal]

chrisstie,

The condensation people see is a function of the humidity and temperature of the air in the room, and the temperature of the outside of the viewing window. If that temperature is below the dew point, you'll get condensation. What I do is either set up a small fan to blow room air across the viewing window or install a "thermopane" and inject dessicated air between the panels....or just live with it.


Jay

 

[chrisstie]

My goal will be making a tank containing animals from the Pacific NW. I think my goal temp will be 55-60, but have not determined tank size and what equipment for that size yet. This is the daydreaming stage at the moment.

I think the actual humidity where I'll be living in Seattle is comparable to that of here in Orlando but the temperature out west is *much* cooler. After I move I'll be able to measure all that stuff inside the new place.

Thanks for the advanced aquarist links those help a bunch, and for some reason I totally overlooked them! I think my brain is just scrambled a bit from the move!

 

[JHemdal]

chrisstie,

IMO, the biggest problem with home temperate tanks is that really nobody is willing to shell out the money to have a second, back-up chiller on hand. It isn't a question of *if* your chiller will fail, but *when*.
One possible work-around would be to have a series of two-liter pop bottles frozen and ready to go. You then would have time to either buy a replacement chiller, or call in a service company (many chillers use standard off-the-shelf parts).


Jay

 

[chrisstie]

Do you happen to know off the top of your head a typical lifespan of any given chiller?

I think if I were to be very serious about this it would be like where I am now in Orlando- my A/C broke the other day. Had that happened when my tanks were up and running? I'd have a few thousand dollars worth of fish soup, it was 95 degrees in my house. Had I had my fish tanks up, I had ways to keep them cool.

I would invest in making sure I could keep this tank running in spite of power outage, equipment failure, etc. I wouldn't set it up until I could afford it (I'm pretty frugal and conservative when it comes to that stuff. If I'm serious about something I will go the extra mile so I don't experience greater loss later)

It is a very good point you bring up, maybe one plan of attack is to buy one new when you set things up and shop for a used but good condition backup and hope you never need to actually use it

 

[JHemdal]

chrisstie,

Sorry - I don't have a really good handle on the MTBF (mean time between failure) for chillers. The flippant response is that they always fail when you least expect them to, and always do so during a heat wave!
I bought a series of inexpensive Asian import chillers that all failed after two or three years. The domestic chillers that use titanium heat exchangers and Tecumseh compressors usually last 5+ years. The most common problem is loss of coolant, but I've had a rash of problems lately where the fan motor just gives out. In some cases, the chiller itself still works, but the controller fails. In those situations, you can often manually turn the chiller on and off to maintain a proper temperature until you can purchase a replacement controller.
Salt spray causing corrosion is probably the main cause of these failures, so if you are careful to wash the evaporative fins, controller housings and fittings to keep the salt off them, you can extend their life.

Aqualogic is my current favorite for small to medium marine aquariums...but there may be other brands out there that work just as well.


Jay

 

[steveweast]

I have been...and still am...a relatively long time keeper of a coldwater Puget Sound tank......so, I feel that I'm qualified to answer a few of your concerns...

First of all...welcome to the PNW. You can kiss goodbye all that heat, humidity, and bugs that is known as Florida. I, personally, am a Southern Cal refugee. Soon you be up here in shorts and a tee shirt while it's snowing outside like the rest of us. After a year or so, you'll view anything over 60 F as time to turn on the AC.

As mentioned earlier, the word temperate means different things to different people. I will address my comments to a Puget Sound biotope since I'm assuming that you'll be collecting from the Sound.....which is what I do even though I'm in Portland, Oregon.

As for the tank....you'll want to keep the tank in the 50 - 60 F range. I keep mine at 55 F. I have seen tanks with 1/2" thick acrylic sweat on the few high 90 F days that we get up here. I use 1" thick acrylic on my tank and sump and have never even hazed over. 3/4" would probably yield similar results. Remember, it rains 9 months of the year up here and the typical highs from Oct through Nov will be in the 50's to 60's.....Dec to March are in the 30 -40 F range....April through June will be 50 -60 K. July through Sep highs are usually in the 70's...but can get to the high 90's. Our humidity is only accompanied by cold rains.

Substrate......You can use anything you want....but, the natural Puget Sound substrate is either a granite peeble to flat out mud. I use a granite peeble that I collected by Port Angeles. You could use regular crushed coral....but, it won't look like the Pacific Northwest.

Live rock.....same as sand. The natural rocks here are granite or basalt and are extremely dense and heavy. You will get minimal bacterial surface area from these rocks and no dentrification. You'll need to decide how you're going to handle NO3 build up if you use native rocks. I use vodka and water changes. Again....you could use tropical live rock....it just doesn't look natural though.

Chiller....you won't need as big of a chiller as some might think. I use a 1/2 hp chiller for about 150 gals....and from Fall to Spring, it rarely kicks on (but, I do keep my tank in the garage). A back up chiller and generator are a good idea for any tank... warm or cold. A chiller failure would really only be extremely time sensative from June to Sep.

You might want to check out my coldwater webpage at:

http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_coldwater.htm


I'd be happy to answer any further questions that you might have.

 

[steveweast]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15286780#post15286780 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
chrisstie,

IMO, the biggest problem with home temperate tanks is that really nobody is willing to shell out the money to have a second, back-up chiller on hand. It isn't a question of *if* your chiller will fail, but *when*.
One possible work-around would be to have a series of two-liter pop bottles frozen and ready to go. You then would have time to either buy a replacement chiller, or call in a service company (many chillers use standard off-the-shelf parts).


Jay

Actually....what I've found to be just as good and doesn't take up freezer space....is just keep high quality ziplock zipper bags on hand. You can then just run to the store for ice....fill the bags....and float them. This is how I keep my coolers chilled for the 3 hour drive home from Puget Sound when I collect in the summer.

 

[chrisstie]

Steve, thanks so much for your input! I've been following your tank and it was one of the original inspirations for me to consider doing coldwater at all. Now that I'm moving in two weeks and will be 10 minutes from the Sound, well... the temptation is just growing! I also visited the Seattle aquarium and just couldn't believe the life in the cooler waters of the Pacific. It seemed both like an alien world yet familiar to me, and absolutely gorgeous in its very unique way!

I adore learning about every little critter from the inverts to the corals to the fish, and am looking forward to the mighty amount of research to do to be able to successfully keep critters alive.

One of my favorites so far are these tiny little blobby fish with a suction cup much like that of a goby - but they really latch on! I'm not sure if that one is fit for being a pet but I sure hope so!

For now I'm concerned about my move and securing a job but it is also a good time to distract myself and relax planning out a tank. 3/4" Acrylic sounds like a good number, I'd love to design a tank to mimic a Red Sea Max. The 34g was awesome, but these cooler water critters seem a bit bigger than their tropical cousins so maybe something in the 100g range would be good.

I may even have to wait a year, depending on how my landlord feels about fish tanks on his hardwood flooring, but still planning and learning is the best thing I can do before jumping feet first into vastly uncharted waters, so to speak.

 

[steveweast]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15290631#post15290631 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrisstie


One of my favorites so far are these tiny little blobby fish with a suction cup much like that of a goby - but they really latch on! I'm not sure if that one is fit for being a pet but I sure hope so!

I believe you're referring to the Pacific Spiny Lumpsucker which is indeed native to Puget Sound and does well in captivity.

 

[chrisstie]

Wow. Don't recall seeing him in THAT color but that'll do! Lumpsucker is definitely the fish. The one I saw at the aquarium seemed more mottled to blend in with the background of pebbles and mud.

I may end up looking for used rock for a tank like this. I don't want to impact the environment and have grown up in a place where removing rock from the natural habitats where so much marine life is frowned upon and mostly illegal. Unless the laws out there are different and it is acceptable, well, I'd consider going local all the way.

You mentioned collecting rocks and pebbles locally, are there really places that are okay with that? I definitely got an even stronger vibe of protecting the environment out west so I'd be surprised.

I just want to be legal and responsible.

 

[steveweast]

The laws out here are both crystal clear and very muddy......crystal clear in that nothing can be collected from a reserve (and they're easily identified). Since coldwater reefing is a niche hobby, the impact on the Sound is neglible to the point that no real legislation has ever been devised. There are collecting rules which can be found here:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/shelfish/crabreg/otherspeciesregs.shtml
the bottom section revolves around us mostly.

Protected areas can be found here:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/mpa/puget_sound/


The rules are mostly geared for fishing....but, are still applicable to us. The main rule is "personal use only".....no commercial (selling) uses can be done without special permits.

If you notice....currently abalone is a no no for collecting......but, I have two in my system. They are great little cleaners. Where did I get mine ? at the local Asian fish market for $2 each. That's the great thing about coldwater keeping....you can shop for livstock at the local fish market.

 

[chrisstie]

Thanks again so much for the information, keeping up to date on collection laws will be important to me regardless as I hope to do a lot of fishing once I move. I love saltwater fishing!

I can just see myself now walking into Uwajimaya browsing their "live" section and feeling the need to save the poor, but oh so delicious critters

 

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15292602#post15292602 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by steveweast
The laws out here are both crystal clear and very muddy......crystal clear in that nothing can be collected from a reserve (and they're easily identified). Since coldwater reefing is a niche hobby, the impact on the Sound is neglible to the point that no real legislation has ever been devised. There are collecting rules which can be found here:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/shelfish/crabreg/otherspeciesregs.shtml
the bottom section revolves around us mostly.

Protected areas can be found here:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/mpa/puget_sound/


The rules are mostly geared for fishing....but, are still applicable to us. The main rule is "personal use only".....no commercial (selling) uses can be done without special permits.

If you notice....currently abalone is a no no for collecting......but, I have two in my system. They are great little cleaners. Where did I get mine ? at the local Asian fish market for $2 each. That's the great thing about coldwater keeping....you can shop for livstock at the local fish market.

Steve with withering foot running up the cost I sure hope you don't allow any contact with your system to the ocean. Currently withering foot is not up that far and it would be a shame to see it get that far. It's a serious problem. Hopefully those aren't from any of the Cali farms since they're in the area that has withering foot in the wild population.

 

[steveweast]

That's interesting Gresh. I haven't been returning things to the ocean.....nor do I plan to.....OTOH, I wouldn't have considered these to have the disease since they farmed raised. Are you saying the farm population is also experiencing problems ? I was aware of the disease....but, considered it a mainly SoCal issue.

 

[maysorum]

so it seems like there are regulations for certain fish and shellfish collecting, but anemones, nudibranchs, sea stars, etc. are not regulated, is this correct?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15292602#post15292602 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by steveweast
The laws out here are both crystal clear and very muddy......crystal clear in that nothing can be collected from a reserve (and they're easily identified). Since coldwater reefing is a niche hobby, the impact on the Sound is neglible to the point that no real legislation has ever been devised. There are collecting rules which can be found here:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/shelfish/crabreg/otherspeciesregs.shtml
the bottom section revolves around us mostly.

Protected areas can be found here:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/mpa/puget_sound/


The rules are mostly geared for fishing....but, are still applicable to us. The main rule is "personal use only".....no commercial (selling) uses can be done without special permits.

If you notice....currently abalone is a no no for collecting......but, I have two in my system. They are great little cleaners. Where did I get mine ? at the local Asian fish market for $2 each. That's the great thing about coldwater keeping....you can shop for livstock at the local fish market.