LFS in Erie Pennsylvania (sea cave) so messed up

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

I'm sure the store is most likely not at fault in the original acquiring of this Eel within the hobby. But now that it has been in the hobby, someone has to take care of it.

It is not the only captive Green Moray I have seen in an LFS at a huge size as that. I've seen them in other stores at smaller sizes in the past as well as one in another LFS back in the 80's that was way larger than that one!

It was in a 300 gallon tank and out growing it at the time.

The Green Moray (not the largest) BUT one of the Largest marine Eels has been recorded at the largest specimen: over 8 feet long and 65 or more pounds.

It has been traded in the hobby for a long time, especially beginning in the earliest days, before more was known about it-
it is now "considered" a species NOT well suited for the hobby and it's collection for hobby use is discouraged as such.

However, many have still been in the trade unfortunetly from one reason or another for a long time. I'm sure it was not the goal of this LFS to specifically "order" one. (at any size..)

But like many cases, they were an available outlet to take the poor thing.
Yes, it needs an upgrade. But at least temporarily it has a home of sorts until then. I'm sure the LFS owner does not intend to abuse it. Rather do whatever he can to help it / keep it for as long as feasible without harm coming to it.

My personal opinion:
Eventually when & If possible, it should go to a public zoo/aquarium like many I've seen go before. To live out the rest of it's life as long as possible / if possible. It should not be sold to a home owner, even with a custom 1-2,000 gallon tank. Still not the right setting. Though someone might try. Eventually they will still want to get rid of it. If not eventually one of the public aquariums, then perhaps a special release to the wild if deemed by an M. biologist. But the public aquarium is most likely the best option. As it is my surmizing that most likely it "may" not survive a release to the wild, if it spent it's life in captivity.

 

[aww_419]

??? people harp and bash on lfs all the time on here. I have seen people bash "the fish store", pet co, pets-mart, blue lagoon, steve pets and markeims and thats just in the buffalo area. Someone from RC said in a recent thread that every store in Pittsburgh was garbage. people on here dont allow others to bash on the good lfs'. People dont stand anyone bashing on arc or abc or cf or others because they are great stores with great reputations with respectable owners and operators. Apart from small town hospitality and cleanliness I see no reason so far to feel respect for this stores rep. I am willing to give it another chance since I will be down there quite a bit. I actually thought this thread was deleted, (which it should be) until it found its way to the top again. Its gone far off topic like so many threads on here. this thread was not about respect for the lfs owner, love of the lfs itself, love of cleanliness, or the instinctual acts of a moray eel in captivity. It was about what people thought of keeping a large animal in a small habitat and perhaps of those that do it. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[aww_419]

Deep blue, that is very reasonable and would be perfectly understandable if that were the case but the eel has been in this tank for years and it was acquired when it was 12inches which is still too big for that tank.

Shrout.... Seriously, We know how long it takes to implement a new tank??? He is an lfs owner with many larger tanks in that store. Its in a 6foot tank with a HOB filter. Why does it take years for the owner of an lfs to acquire a larger tank with a larger HOB filter???

Not to mention the zoo and the aquarium that are very near that store that could certainly give that poor guy a nicer home than they ever could. If it truly was a beloved pet, instead of some kind of attraction I would think its loving owners would want the best for it.

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

I for one don't disagree with you Awe.
I'll agree.

I will just say that it is a sad fact of a few species we've seen in the fish trade, that should have never made it to any aquatic hobby. For their own good, they are not suited for it because it's size and needs out grow anyone being able to care for it for life. Atleast in a home or store that is.

But those that are in the hobby for whatever reason originally,
NEED our help. They have the right (at least by ones good morals) to be cared for properly by someone. Since they are stuck in a tank now at no fault of their own. Hopefully one day before it is "too much" it will find it's way to the public aquarium at least.

 

[shroutk3]

I would just like to make sure everyone is calmly and respectively sharing opinions and if anyone is offended by the comments or feels berated please send me a pm or ask that the thread be closed. I think we can all share opinions and have a nice discussion without ganging up on anyone or feeling harassed.

Well at least its nice to see hes still cramped in that small tank and and now resorting to making escape attempts...... or suicide attempts.

Actually I was in there like 4 days ago, and the biggest empty tank in the store was way smaller. Fact is that in Erie a 55 is a big tank to people- Steve doesn't regularly stock anything above a 125 (you saw the amount of floor space), so it will take some time. Erie has no where near the amount of hobbyists or money in the trade as other cities- that's why there's no frags, or sps, or $400 fish in this store. There are a few things apparent:

1. People with issues should actually talk to Steve, not just complain about it here. George is alive in that tank and he probably wouldn't be in many of the other situations he could have ended up in.
2. There are no zoos/aquariums within a few hours that have the capacity or willingness to take this animal. I used to work as a zoo keeper and we turned unwanted pets away all the time, this case would be no different to a zoo. Not to mention the difficulty involved and likelihood of injury to the animal in an attempted transport.

 

[aww_419]

ummm did me saying its still cramped and attempting to escape or commit suicide offend you or make you feel harassed or ganged up on for some reason??? If not, I have no idea why you quoted those two paragraphs.

I never said anything about frags or $400 fish?? what are you talking about? He has had several years to get a new tank. I never said he had large empty tanks but the six foot tank next to the eels tank was nearly empty when I was there and only had a few pices of liverock in it. Since you are making or assuming excuses for steve instead of him explaining his actions, whats the excuse for that?


1.perhaps your right people shouldnt say anything until they have talked to steve themselves.

2. You should not assume that zoos and aquariums wont take him until youve called them all and asked yourself. perhaps Tad would know of a place that would take the eel. have you or steves contacted him?

3.The facts are that the eel is in too small of a tank and has been for a long time with no effort to change that.

4.If you can tell me that talking to steve about the eel will magically transport the eel somewhere where its not cramped then ill call him right now. hell ill even take the drive down there to talk to him one on one. But it very much sounds like the eel is stuck in that tiny tank until steve decides when he wants to change that or someone contacts the spca or peta or the local sheriffs depart or western penn humane society police.

 

[superkat]

one sentence bothers me, "he said "no problem, we are lucky he is alive, he was on the floor when I came in the other morning." .........

and that's all i'm saying.

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

I'll be a little 50/50 on this one...

Though it's none of my business directly:

I've volunteered for both Monroe and Livingston county Humane Societies within Upstate New York. As well as a Greece "pet group" in the past, and I've had contacts at Seneca park zoo where I've witnessed both Reptiles and Fish taken in to the zoo in the past. Some fish they had to eventually even get to another facility(out of state) because they outgrew the zoos tanks. As well as working with and being friends with a few LFS owners over the past 4 decades in the fish hobby.

I'm in full support of this fish hopefully-eventually going to a public aquarium.

However, I've seen a couple fish go to these before, and I'll tell you it's NOT always as easy as contacting them. Many even very Large facilities will deny initially even if they have space. But with finding just the right one at the time, or enough concentrated effort over a good period of time, you can usually find an adequate enough new home for the fish. But this often takes a good amount of time and effort put forth.

Possibly something that has not been looked into enough until maybe recently if at all. Yes, it should be done. But maybe this LFS person has been doing as best as they could until recently. Believe me the job is not an easy task as one might think.

Hopefully they are thinking of doing, or have been trying to do the right thing as of recent.

All you can do is give them a fair chance. I could be wrong, but in good faith I'd venture they are probably not really bad people and would not mean to do any wrong on purpose. All anyone concerned can do if possible and they really want to is: just keep an eye on it, offer help if you can give it, if the owner seems to make some sort of effort then you can't really bash 'em badly. If it's truly not, then your choice to report them to various agencies.
But that's really a last resort if someone is really that concerned.

It would be better for anyone involved- even especially the fish itself,
if something was worked out- "without" going through too big of a "to do" with certain people over it.

I hope things go well for the fish and no ill will directed toward the store owner either. Unless they are not sincere in their resolve for the fish. But that has not been completely proved that I can see.

Let's put it this way. I've seen some bad things happen. Even with a fish that was 20 years old, loved and kept well by someone that I knew.
Don't want to be too specific here but-
You don't want things to go bad for the fish either.

 

[andrew2010]

I apoligise to everyone for beating a dead horse. I was only being informative as to the owner knowing this eel needs a new home, and to his generosity and my visit to the store. I was not trying to continuing the bashing.

 

[forrealb50]

OMG, I couldn't sleep with that thing in my house. That looks like it could eat my pit bull mix. Yikes!

 

[KPearce]

RyanEG If you know anything about morays they ALL are escape artists and an eel of that size is incedibly strong. I personally think this is a BS thread. We as a community would never stand for someone bashing one of local stores. I think we should have the respect for others not to bash theirs. Its not an ideal situation but still...

Thank you!

aww_420------Shrout.... Seriously, We know how long it takes to implement a new tank??? He is an lfs owner with many larger tanks in that store. Its in a 6foot tank with a HOB filter. Why does it take years for the owner of an lfs to acquire a larger tank with a larger HOB filter???

Not to mention the zoo and the aquarium that are very near that store that could certainly give that poor guy a nicer home than they ever could. If it truly was a beloved pet, instead of some kind of attraction I would think its loving owners would want the best for it. /QUOTE]

Weekly water changes are the source of filtration for this tank... not the HOB filter.... the zoo!!! thats a joke in itself, it couldnt care for this animal any better than steve, if they would take it, but they wont.... as shroutK stated he worked there and deny things all the time...

4.If you can tell me that talking to steve about the eel will magically transport the eel somewhere where its not cramped then ill call him right now. hell ill even take the drive down there to talk to him one on one. But it very much sounds like the eel is stuck in that tiny tank until steve decides when he wants to change that or someone contacts the spca or peta or the local sheriffs depart or western penn humane society police.

Is this a joke???? Its not going to happen... Please do go talk to him one on one about it, please let me know when i would love to be a fly on the wall...


seriously mods delete this garbage thread... beating a dead horse is understated..............

 

[aww_419]

Read my posts kpearce, I never once bashed this guys store. I told of my experience with the lfs in one post and that it was messed up they kept the eel like that. The quality of the lfs is not what this thread was suppose to be about. And Yes kpearce it was a joke. since I know talking to him wouldn't result in any magic or even in that poor eel having a better home, just a dead end convo with some guy who will defend his actions of keeping an animal in cramped quarters. Kind of like this conversation. For some reason a few of you decide that in this case its ok for the animal to simply be surviving. Everyone on here would normally agree that this hobby is about sustaining our animals in a habitat that is as close to their natural habitat as we can... except when someone you know and who gives you discounts is mistreating an animal, then it off to their rescue. What a joke. Its inhumane!!! the owner deserves to be put in a small glass box with weekly air changes while people take pictures of him and pay $5 to touch him with their dirty fingers. I could care less what type of store it is or how nice of a person the guy is, this thread was about what is humane and what is not. Not about a friend that owns an lfs and gives you stuff. Not only was the comment i made obviously a joke but this thread is now a joke any one that thinks its ok to treat an animal poorly is a joke and that store is a joke. I promise you if and when i visit in the next few months and its still in that small tank i will say something to him about it. And upon leaving I will contact whatever authority that handles that kind of mistreatment in the area and let them be the judge if that habitat is ok as long as its fed expensive food.

take your own advice and dont assume anything. Dont talk about anyone not being interested in the eel if you havent asked anyone. I think the problem is that if he found a facility to take the eel he would have to transport it. and thats just too much work especially seeing as how even his wife is afraid to touch it. although ignorance is bliss. no matter how nice of a guy he is. Its like mike Vic having his friends tell me hes a saint. Well im not buying it and several others who have posted and pmed me arent buying it either.


Side note: I cant believe someone who worked at a zoo would think this treatment is ok. Perhaps thats why the key word is WORKED?

here ya go pearce tell your friend about this

http://erie.craigslist.org/for/1672566313.html

If he wants to care for his pet that he loves so much its only 350 or best offer to give it a better home. what a deal, cant beat that.

 

[KPearce]

I dont need to go any farther than the title of the thread to see that YOU have bashed this LFS. so your comment about that is BS. The animal is not treated poorly and is not going to be any happier in 125G.... I have a great idea spend the money and buy the tank yourself and offer to donate it to him.... I agree he needs a bigger tank but that one just aint going to cut it. Please do us all a favor so this thread can end and call around to some zoos/aquariums, and if they accept , bring it to steve's attention, and go from there. You can call the authorities, i truly dont care... FWIW I recieve no deals/discounts steve (someomne must be assuming....):hammer:I havent spent a penny there in ages...
The comment about the zoo.... really thats all you got, You know people do move on to bigger and better things, working at a zoo is not an ideal job to be supporting a family.. I think getting your Doctorates might pay a bit more...
If your so against this guys actions why would you even go back?

Ok, so this thread isnt going anywhere so that is my last comment, please pm for discussions...

 

[aww_419]

I told of my experience with the lfs in one post and that it was messed up they kept the eel like that.

I stated what i said, which just so happens to be the title so how is that BS also how is that bashing? If stating that i think the way the lfs is handling the care of eel is messed up is bashing then other people in this thread did a lot worse and I dont see you saying anything to them. Its obvious I was referring to the care of the eel and not the quality of the store any anything else about the store.

Why would i go back???? I would go back because when this thread first started you sent me a pm telling me that the store is great and the owners are great and they took the best care for the eel possible and that If i went back your sure my experience would be better. Thats why i was thinking about going back!! If you want me to pm that convo to you in case you deleted it i will. other than that this is a discussion board and any discussion or opinion I have on this subject will be posted here not in PM. Ive noticed people say what they really think in pms then bash people in posts then send pms to apologies then do it again. Even if it makes your friends store look bad.

I wasnt talking about you when i mentioned free items discounts. I was talking about the other post saying they received those things. So again please stop with any presumptions and assumptions. if you dont know who im talking about then just ask. And since you were a loyal and frequent customer at one point dont tell me you never received a break or discount. That would just be bad business practices.

I really dont care about this guy or you defending him. I only care that the animal is in a space that it doesnt deserve, which you agreed to. So why this thread keeps being brought back up to the top defending the kind of person the owner is? i really dont know or care.

Fact: Its been in too small of a space for way way too long with no change.

Everything else doesnt matter.

FYI kpearce i sent an email to the Cleveland aquarium earlier and am awaiting a response. I work hard and spend a lot of $$ to make sure my animals are kept in the highest of health and happiness and donate quite a bit to the buffalo zoo and my mother and fiance volunteer at the spca in tonawanda. So as far as the comments about me taking care of it, thats all we need is more good people doing all the work and spending their hard earned $$ to clean up other peoples mistakes and mistreatment. What a great place to live for the disheartened, dis-concerned and irresponsible.

deep six is right calling the authorities now could possibly be harmful for the eel. Not worth a coin flip, but in a few months if the eel is still in that tank its pretty much had its death warrant signed by steve anyway.

If you think an empty 125 would not be a better home than the tank he is in then something aint right. If anyone has a large tank to donate or sell very cheap and if steve will donate the eel I will take it and care for it the way it needs to be taken care until I find it a suitable home since he cannot. this is a promise. Dont need a stand or light or equipment I will provide everything else. Just need a large tank and the eel and he will have a nice home I guarantee it.

 

[BrianD]

This has gone on long enough.