LFS with attitude

ReefArtist

ReefArtist

In Memoriam
Hi everyone,
I just want to make sure I really didn’t make a “Big Mistake” with my substrate â€"œ here’s the story. We’ve been talking about the LFS and one by one I’ve been checking them out. Well I was in the area of one of the new LFS in St. Petersburg and thought I would stop by and check it out. At first the heavier set guy greeted my and he was great â€"œ gave me a lot of information and said if I needed any thing (DIY) he would give me advice. Very nice and I thought what a great store. They have some nice specimens and the place is clean â€"œ seemed nice. Well the one guy left for the day and the (I think owner) skinner person came up to me and at first was very nice. He asked me about my substrate and I told him it was around 3 inch max 4 in places. He never asked me what type of fish I was planning on keep or anything â€"œ he just went off. This is a quote: “That is bad and you just wasted all you money . . . you’re going to have all kinds of problems and the best thing to do is take it out”. He asked me “Who told you to do that anyway” and I replied that I’ve read this in books and on the net mainly RC. The answer to that is everyone is wrong and the new way is to go bare in the back and just a little in the front. I told him that I had read that but I have fish that need to borrow. The comment was that it didn’t matter â€"œ this is the “new way to go”. I was completely dumbfounded â€"œ why is this guy telling me how to run my tank. Sure please give me advice but number one do it in a nice way. I did my research and I want to keep some borrowing fish â€"œ they need a deeper substrate. Did I do my tank all wrong? Because of this, chances are I won’t be back. The guy really needs to learn that there is more than one opinion about things â€"œ I now just consider him a jerk and took them off my list. Did I really do my tank incorrectly?
 
No if you have burrowing fish such as wrasses, jawfish, some gobies, and many others, you will need it. It also grows many worms and other little critters that feed the tank. It also harbors lots of good bacteria to break down nitrates. The bad thing is it slowly can pick up detritus and get full of nutrients. It may take years. The new way is bare bottom, as you can pick up all detritus, and have no nutrient release. Most people have substrate. But I agree a bare bottom tank holds and releases less nutrients, and is easier to clean etc. But my own tank has a substrate about 3 inches deep, as I have critters that use it, would I have a bare bottom, but for now mine works.
 
Thanks Stevemc that's the reason I went with the deeper substrate, but then I thought I must have misunderstood something. I just started my tank (month- cycled with cleanup crew) and with so much information with the internet it's easy to get confused.
 
Well, barebottom isn't exactly new....from what I've heard it was the "new thing" before deep sand beds. It's just come back into popularity.

In any event, I tend to agree with the advice that was given to you. I will NEVER run a deep sand bed again. Sand is one thing (I have a shallow bed in my 30 gallon), but go deep? Not for me, I've seen the problems it causes firsthand. If it's a question of what to do about the fish that require the bed to burrow...that's easy, don't keep them.

There is plenty of arguement back and forth on the barebottom vs DSP arguement and it's not my intention to rehash them here. Suffice it to say, those of us who have moved away from using a DSB have done so for very specific reasons (all of which concern the health of our livestock) and because of that, yes, many of us consider that an incorrect way to keep a tank.
 
Hi Matt,
I do see where the barebottom or nearly barebottom would be the way to go. I do like the borrowing fish and I thought it was the right thing to do for them. I also thought that DSP was more on line with say 5 or 6 inch sand bed not 3 - 4 max. So I was thinking I was kind of taking the middle road with the 3 - 4 inch. Is it true that sand breaks down after time? I now hoping after a few years it possibly would be more like maybe 2 -3 inches - but not sure on the breakdown of the sand bed. I've used the sand (different type) with my freshwater and the fish really love it (cory's and Cichlids). but I can definitely see were the trend would go to more of a less is better sand bed. Do you go completely bare (tank that is) or bare behind the rocks and about one inch in the front?
 
Well...I'm not going to claim to speak in absolutes...because I really don't want to start the argument. So consider EVERYTHING I say here purely opinion based on personal observation and experience :).

The biggest problem with a deep sand bed (and by deep, I mean deep enough so that there isn't regular turnover of all of the sand, I'd say around 4") is that it tends to accumulate waste over time. I had a 50 gallon tank setup for about 4 years. When it was first setup I had a shallow CC bed, maybe 1 - 2". It ran perfectly fine. Then the DSB craze came about and I decided to give it a try. I put in a 4-5" oolitic sand bed (basically followed the exact recommendations of Ron Shimek, the original proponent of DSBs).

The tank ran fine for about 2 years (fine, but not "better" than it was with the CC). After that I started noticing a very steady decline in the health of the tank. Nitrates and testable phosphates skyrocketed. Nothing I could do brought the tank back to health (and no, it wasn't overstocked, I had a single damsel and a single clarkii clown in the tank, that's it).

When I setup my 225 I decided I was not going through all of that again. I firmly believe that the DSB killed my 50. So my new tank is barebottom all the way, lots of flow (somewhere between 6,000 and 8,000 gph depending on which pumps are on) and a beefy skimmer running wet. Even if I wanted to put a shallow bed in the tank it wouldn't work, there's way too much flow.

At the beginning I had a slight nitrate problem. I attribute this to two things. First, all of my rock was uncured and basically cycled in the tank. It took a little while for all the crap to leech out (which by the way would have gone right into the sand bed in a DSB tank). Second, I had some problems with the pump on my skimmer. Once the skimmer was fixed the tank settled down and has remained so.

I change my filter socks and siphon the tank a couple times a month and that's it. Even that would be a lot less except I have a full grown urchin in the tank that puts out a LOT of waste. I swear he could make a sandbed all on his own given enough time!

In my 30 gallon, I didn't want to go barebottom. The tank isn't shaped to be conductive to high flow and I don't have room for a strong skimmer. So I'm running a mid range skimmer and a shallow (1") sand bed.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8190584#post8190584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefArtist
I do like the borrowing fish and I thought it was the right thing to do for them.
Click to expand...

Just wanted to point out that regardless of whether we agree on using sand, follow this statement and we'll always agree at the end. Assuming you can keep the tank healthy with the deep bed, this of course was the right decision. When we as hobbyists choose to keep an animal in our tank, we need to provide the proper environment for them.

This is why I made the comment "don't keep them". It would be completely irresponsible for a someone with a barebottom tank to try and keep burrowing animals.
 
I agree that everything is not absolute and I’m sure things will again change for the better I hope â€"œ that’s probably one of the reasons we love this hobby. We have to use our brains, communicate and share information. I’m gathering information and learning so you will not get an argument out of me- not yet anyway :D.
This will be a very good learning experience for me. I do love the borrowing gobies and jawfish and that’s the reason I have the deeper substrate. I’ll have to really watch the ones I end up getting, do they really borrow that much or are they just has happy in the caves within my rocks.
When I was reading about the really deep sand beds, I couldn’t see the oxygen get to the bottom. Then I think they talked about having snails and other borrowing specimens stirring thing up and taking care of that. But now that you’ve pointed out some of the problems you had â€"œ it’s more like they can’t get every inch of the bottom (under the rocks and maybe other hard to get areas). I can see the possible problems I might be facing in about three years.
You have some major flow in your tank, of course you do have a large tank â€"œ but still :D. Do you have everything mainly going to one area for cleanup? I have two small pumps for directional flow and of course my intake providing some. I wasn’t sure how much flow was needed when I put it together so I just purchased two small (~450 gph) pumps. As I understand the complete workings of the reef tank and the requirements of my livestock I decide on, I think these will have to be upgraded.
Thanks for all the information you’ve provided and I sorry about the 50 g tank, but it sounds like you’ve learned so valuable lessons and your sharing this information â€"œ thanks!
 
ReefArtist,

One thing you will find in this hobby is everyone has an opinion. You will find great tanks bare bottom and great tanks with DSBs. Do you research do what you feel comfortable and if it does not seem to work than try changing.

I for run run a DSB of about 5" silca play sand. I believe that the deep sand bed provides an anoxic area to grow bateria that breaks down nitrates. So while some people say DSB are a sink to incourage nitrates, I believe they will help naturally lower it. Will my system eventually become a nutrient sink? Maybe and if it does I will do something to correct the problem. But until then I will enjoy the tank.

Good luck on your decision and keep us posted.

Cheers,
Chris
 
Hi chris,
Oh believe me for my tank and the livestock I want to take care of, I do believe I've made the right decision. The information is invaluable to me as a beginner. I want to hear the pros and cons and as we go through our reef trials it's all about learning and keeping our pets alive, healthy and happy as best we can. With your comments and others I have some real information - not from a book that is 5 years or even 1 year old. All my tank readings are great right now and I'm about to make my first step in adding my first fish :beer:! This was the road I choose and I'm still sticking with that, but I'm now aware of the possible pit falls of doing so - just like you. But who is to say that the barebottom tanks are going to work out - for some reason they went way from it, not sure why.
 
ReefArtist, at the end of the day, do it however you would like. There are hundreds if not thousands of people on here that will tell you DSB is best and the same amount that will say DSB is very bad. Over the years, I like the DSB ideas but always was concerned with long term issues so perhaps a solution for you, as it has been for me is to use a refugium with DSB but only the amount of sand you want for looks and use in the main tank.

The best advice i would give you, unrelated to the sand... is make sure you get the best skimmer you can afford.

I would also say... do not shop at any LFS that believes there is only one way to have a nice salt tank. Many LFS employee's have limited knowledge and would have to be narrow minded if he refused to accept that many of us have DSB's that work well for several to many years. You may also want to search (I know it only works at times) for the DSB debates, they have lasted for years on here and sometimes they have really heated debates.
 
Hi Lisaandmikefamil,
thanks for the advice. The way I was treated was well let us just say unprofessional. If you want to keep customers it is not a good idea to slam their tank. I would have respected him more if he would have talked to me in a nicer way - I will defend myself like everyone else when put in a corner. The discussions here have been great and with this little thread I have learned some very interesting ideas on the subject.
 
Yea! Another Largo Reef! FWIW probably the next time I do a completely new setup I'll probably be trying a barebottom setup. There is nothing wrong with a sandbed either, thats what I'm using now.
 
Hey another largoite! I would think a barebottom would be more person friendly - easier to clean and to keep clean. Do the fish like it? I also understand that it keeps the readings more stable, of course having nothing but fish and shelve to sit things would also. That would be ideal but is it the best environment for our livestock? Would we like to look at it? These are the questions I'm now asking myself and I think that is where we get such opinions.
 
Now that everyone says this.. I think this is what happened with my 75 gallon Reef tank. Let me tell you the story.

I setup my tank about a year and a halt ago. I have a Royal Gramma, yellow stripe maroon clown, had a yellow tang but now he is in the 210 and now I have a Red Sea Sailfin. For about 6-7 months the Tank was perfect. I had a sump with a built in skimmer at the time. I had about 2-3 inches of sand on the bottom with about 90 poungs of rock. 2 Seio 820's and the return for flow. I started noticing tissue on the orange cap losing color and polyps not extending as far as they usually were. I went on vacation and came back. They looked a little worse. I moved into a new house and had to move the tank again. During the move I placed all the rock in coolers and left most of the sand in the tank. THE WATER WAS SO BROWN. The sand that I did take out I cleaned with RO water. It was so nasty it left a brown stain in the gutter outside. Detritus under my rocks was just disgusting. The accumulation of nutrients and not a big enough skimmer to take them all out and not having a fuge almost killed my tank.

I got a frag from the 450gallon tank that was broken down from FINZ. I almost lost the coral. I have since added a 110 gallon sump a good size euro reef(Not sure what model but 8inX24) I took almost half the sand out and going to take out more. I am considering doing a DSB in a fuge with a mangrove though. I have been dosing 1-1.5ml/day ethanol for a few weeks now and my phosphates and nitrates are at 0. The corals are coloring back up. The tips of the Acro are blueing and the orange cap and pocillopora are coming back. :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8192143#post8192143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefArtist
Hey another largoite! I would think a barebottom would be more person friendly - easier to clean and to keep clean. Do the fish like it? I also understand that it keeps the readings more stable, of course having nothing but fish and shelve to sit things would also. That would be ideal but is it the best environment for our livestock? Would we like to look at it? These are the questions I'm now asking myself and I think that is where we get such opinions.
Click to expand...

ok, so I can't say this without grinning...You're welcome to come by and see my barebottom :D. My fish don't seem to care at all...but of course I have stocked the tank knowing to avoid livestock that requires sand.
 
if you want sps a bare bottom is probably ther best way.. give you more control of what goes in the tank.. cant have nutrients release from your sand if you dont have any.
if you have LPS they wont be as happy in a BB tank but you can still have them.. for all LPS sand s probably best ... but what I have done is stir my sand to eliminate dead spots and a very well respected LFS owner does that in his mangrove/ricordia tank on a daily basis, his sand stays pristine.. done weekly it releases moderate amounts and doesent overwhelm your system with gunk. I have in my 200 sps a very shallow sand bed in 1/3 of my tank for my sand critters. i stirr it weekly. I am slowly siphoning and have been for 6 months to acheive BB slowly.. all this is what I do, I dont subscribe to any one theory. JMO and from my experience it seems to work ok for me
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8192360#post8192360 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by poknsnok
if you have LPS they wont be as happy in a BB tank
Click to expand...

I beg to differ! My tank is predominanetly LPS and softies. I feed heavily knowing that my tank can handle it and everything remains quite healthy.
 
Oh Matt I might have to take you up on the offer ;). I did read about the DSB bucket approach and it was very intriguing. Might have to try that sometime on a small system just to see what happens. You know the "Engineer" type :fun5:

I'm wondering if poknsnok is talking about LPS's that like to be placed in the sand. I'm not an LPS expert so I'm not sure but kind of like putting a borrowing goby in a BB - just a thought.
 
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