Literally depressed...watching my tank crash.
- Thread starter sarahdae
- Start date
sarahdae
Member
Update: fish have been in QT for 1.5 days. Since I fear the size of the qt is not what I would wish for all the fish, (35 gal) I have to do lots of water changes. I did 90% today.
I also add prime inbetween water changes in order to bind any ammonia that may creep up.
So far, things are going better than I expected, I have only had 1 loss since putting the fish in QT, when I was really expecting worse than that...
and many of them are eating.
My main concern is that being in this bucket for so long. From what I am reading...4 weeks. I realize the treatment does not need to be that long, but the display has to go fallow...
thanks ice fire for the specific info on quick cure.
Since I originally did not have the info, I decided to be safer by following the instructions on the bottle. So I have been dosing the qt instead of baths. I was afraid if I tried to "guess" on a higher dosage for a bath, that I would kill them.
I am also dosing maracyn 2. I hope this helps with any secondary infections.
Unfortunately, however, I belive there will be more deaths. Some are not eating or looking too good.
I also add prime inbetween water changes in order to bind any ammonia that may creep up.
So far, things are going better than I expected, I have only had 1 loss since putting the fish in QT, when I was really expecting worse than that...
and many of them are eating.
My main concern is that being in this bucket for so long. From what I am reading...4 weeks. I realize the treatment does not need to be that long, but the display has to go fallow...
thanks ice fire for the specific info on quick cure.
Since I originally did not have the info, I decided to be safer by following the instructions on the bottle. So I have been dosing the qt instead of baths. I was afraid if I tried to "guess" on a higher dosage for a bath, that I would kill them.
I am also dosing maracyn 2. I hope this helps with any secondary infections.
Unfortunately, however, I belive there will be more deaths. Some are not eating or looking too good.
Myka
Reefing since '93
I would strongly suggest Formalin baths over dosing Formalin. It's a lot easier on the fish's system to get a quick concentrated bath than it is to live in Formalin for several days. You will have a much higher chance of beating the Brooklynella if you use baths.
Also, I hope you are aging your water/salt mix for waterchanges at least 24 hours, especially if you are changing 90% per day!
Also, I hope you are aging your water/salt mix for waterchanges at least 24 hours, especially if you are changing 90% per day!
lovelylinda
Premium Member
35 gallons is a great QT size. Just test, change the water and wait it out. And NEVER skip QT again. I lost several fish to Brook as a newbie by sharing equipment between the QT and display. Tough lesson.
sarahdae
Member
Ok icefire gave me the correct dosage for using "quick cure" in a bath, and I will be doing that instead.
Agreed, 35 gal is a good size for QT but for this many fish...Its pretty scary.
So anyway here's my setup:
35 gal rubbermaid, 2 airstones, 1 400gph powerhead, pvc elbows in the bottom for cover, daily waterchanges at 90 percent, dosing of prime in between each water change, and dosing of Maracyn 2 after each water change. I am dosing the maracyn 2 per box instructions.
I also have a seachem ammonia alert badge hanging in the qt which is supposed to measure "free ammonia" that is, only toxic ammonia. Prime binds harmful ammonia so, this badge should give me a more accurate idea of harmful ammonia. But I also test for "total ammonia" just to get an idea of what total ammonia (harmful and non toxic) is in there.
I will also discontinue using formalin continually and use it for baths, with airstone.
Currently nearly all fish are eating, but still show signs of brook. I have not lost any fish except the damsel since putting them in QT.
Does anyone know the lifecycle of brooklynella? Most have suggested 4 weeks fallow for the main tank. So in other words this means it takes 4 weeks for this parasite to die in a fallow tank? I've got to be sure on this because I don't want to introduce them to it again. Perhaps Terry B. can advise? Or anyone else?
Agreed, 35 gal is a good size for QT but for this many fish...Its pretty scary.
So anyway here's my setup:
35 gal rubbermaid, 2 airstones, 1 400gph powerhead, pvc elbows in the bottom for cover, daily waterchanges at 90 percent, dosing of prime in between each water change, and dosing of Maracyn 2 after each water change. I am dosing the maracyn 2 per box instructions.
I also have a seachem ammonia alert badge hanging in the qt which is supposed to measure "free ammonia" that is, only toxic ammonia. Prime binds harmful ammonia so, this badge should give me a more accurate idea of harmful ammonia. But I also test for "total ammonia" just to get an idea of what total ammonia (harmful and non toxic) is in there.
I will also discontinue using formalin continually and use it for baths, with airstone.
Currently nearly all fish are eating, but still show signs of brook. I have not lost any fish except the damsel since putting them in QT.
Does anyone know the lifecycle of brooklynella? Most have suggested 4 weeks fallow for the main tank. So in other words this means it takes 4 weeks for this parasite to die in a fallow tank? I've got to be sure on this because I don't want to introduce them to it again. Perhaps Terry B. can advise? Or anyone else?
Sarah,
I have looked far and wide and there just has not been much research done on this parasite. Far less than velvet or ich. I cannot find any source that describes the life cycle. Lack of research is probably related to this not being a major problem for fish farms.
This link to RDO is one of the best.
link
It reproduces by binary fission which allows for very rapid and severe infestations. It also suggests a shorter life cycle than ich or velvet. Still there is no real data. I would tend towards being conservative and use the 7 weeks recommendation for ich.
I have looked far and wide and there just has not been much research done on this parasite. Far less than velvet or ich. I cannot find any source that describes the life cycle. Lack of research is probably related to this not being a major problem for fish farms.
This link to RDO is one of the best.
link
It reproduces by binary fission which allows for very rapid and severe infestations. It also suggests a shorter life cycle than ich or velvet. Still there is no real data. I would tend towards being conservative and use the 7 weeks recommendation for ich.
reefsbeforehoz
New member
yeh. what he said.
sarahdae
Member
Read on...I have come to a depressing realization.
So say my scenario is the fish stay in qt 7 weeks. Currently I have to change approximately 32 gallons a day (90 percent)to get by with this many fish, to keep ammonia under control. I have thought about adding some live rock or something to the QT after treatment is done, but the LR could re-infest them with brook, which would be BAD.
I honestly feel overwhelmed by changing that much water every day for 7 weeks, in fact that isn't even an option, as I will explain....
I have calculated the cost of just the salt for that amount of time, with that amout of water changes...drum roll please....
$664.00!!
I buy IO salt at 62 bucks a bucket. A bucket would only last 5 days at this rate. I hate to say it, but financially, this is not an option. I could completely re stock my tank for that price. (not saying I don't want to save my fish, I absolutely do!)
As you can see, the cost of my mistake is compounding. But unfortunatley I have financial limits, and as far as waterchanges go, I have got to be realistic on what I can manage to keep up with.
What the heck should I do? I am considering giving away all my fish to local reefers who will take care of them.
And that would lead me back to square one, losing all my fish, essentially. Although they won't be dead, they will be gone, and I will feel sad, although glad I gave them a better life elsewhere.
I thought of asking if they would be willing to give them back at a later date, but I don't know if I can find that many people who will donate their extra qt tank for that length of time.
I have considered the only other option...completely draining the main tank, removing all substrate, rinsing rocks in freshly mixed SW, and putting it back together again. But still. There is a chance the disaease is still hiding within the crevices of the rocks.
A chance I am absolutely not willing to take.
What should I do??? Farm out my fish to local reefers/give them away, or is there another option that I am overlooking...
Like I said. Back to square one, feeling pretty depressed now.
So say my scenario is the fish stay in qt 7 weeks. Currently I have to change approximately 32 gallons a day (90 percent)to get by with this many fish, to keep ammonia under control. I have thought about adding some live rock or something to the QT after treatment is done, but the LR could re-infest them with brook, which would be BAD.
I honestly feel overwhelmed by changing that much water every day for 7 weeks, in fact that isn't even an option, as I will explain....
I have calculated the cost of just the salt for that amount of time, with that amout of water changes...drum roll please....
$664.00!!
I buy IO salt at 62 bucks a bucket. A bucket would only last 5 days at this rate. I hate to say it, but financially, this is not an option. I could completely re stock my tank for that price. (not saying I don't want to save my fish, I absolutely do!)
As you can see, the cost of my mistake is compounding. But unfortunatley I have financial limits, and as far as waterchanges go, I have got to be realistic on what I can manage to keep up with.
What the heck should I do? I am considering giving away all my fish to local reefers who will take care of them.
And that would lead me back to square one, losing all my fish, essentially. Although they won't be dead, they will be gone, and I will feel sad, although glad I gave them a better life elsewhere.
I thought of asking if they would be willing to give them back at a later date, but I don't know if I can find that many people who will donate their extra qt tank for that length of time.
I have considered the only other option...completely draining the main tank, removing all substrate, rinsing rocks in freshly mixed SW, and putting it back together again. But still. There is a chance the disaease is still hiding within the crevices of the rocks.
A chance I am absolutely not willing to take.
What should I do??? Farm out my fish to local reefers/give them away, or is there another option that I am overlooking...
Like I said. Back to square one, feeling pretty depressed now.
sarahdae
Member
Oh man...I am starting to feel sick, the formalin got to me...
Not good...
This morning I woke up with a swollen/sore throat and I couldn't figure out why. Just now I got done working around the area where I was doing the formalin bath. The airstones cause it to bubble and fizz, most likely gassing off some formalin, and my throat is swelling & sore again, this is seriously noxious stuff!
A word to the unknowing: DONT BREATHE this stuff in, and its hard to tell if you are, because it doesn't really have a smell...
Hopefully the fish do okay after their first bath...
Hopefully I AM OKAY after this too...yikes.
Not good...
This morning I woke up with a swollen/sore throat and I couldn't figure out why. Just now I got done working around the area where I was doing the formalin bath. The airstones cause it to bubble and fizz, most likely gassing off some formalin, and my throat is swelling & sore again, this is seriously noxious stuff!
A word to the unknowing: DONT BREATHE this stuff in, and its hard to tell if you are, because it doesn't really have a smell...
Hopefully the fish do okay after their first bath...
Hopefully I AM OKAY after this too...yikes.
First thing you should do:
1) Order buckets of salt from DrsFosterSmith right now. They cost $30 per 150 gallon bucket. Shipping is like $10-$20 no matter how many you order so order as many as you think you will need. Thats will reduce your salt cost by HALF!
2) Stop doing 90% water changes. The shock from that is very very bad. Do 40-50% water changes, twice a day. DO NOT DO 90% at any one time. Understand?
1) Order buckets of salt from DrsFosterSmith right now. They cost $30 per 150 gallon bucket. Shipping is like $10-$20 no matter how many you order so order as many as you think you will need. Thats will reduce your salt cost by HALF!
2) Stop doing 90% water changes. The shock from that is very very bad. Do 40-50% water changes, twice a day. DO NOT DO 90% at any one time. Understand?
You really seem overwhelmed at this point and have difficulty making decissions.
Here's my suggestion. Give your sick fish to local reefers. Break down your tank and sell what you can. Save that money in an account. Take a break for a year or so. Then start over with everything new.
And this time with a QT tank.
Here's my suggestion. Give your sick fish to local reefers. Break down your tank and sell what you can. Save that money in an account. Take a break for a year or so. Then start over with everything new.
And this time with a QT tank.
If you can't afford it, then don't change out that much water.
Instead monitor the ammonia in the tank, and change it when you start seeing it creep up. Using prime is good. And use the formalin dips.
You don't need to do 90% water changes if your ammonia is ok, do a smaller water change.
Instead monitor the ammonia in the tank, and change it when you start seeing it creep up. Using prime is good. And use the formalin dips.
You don't need to do 90% water changes if your ammonia is ok, do a smaller water change.
csb
New member
drsfostersmith definitely has a good deal on salt... $60 per bucket is a bit much IMHO. IO online is $31.99 for a 160gal bucket. They also have a 200g bucket of Oceanic salt for $39.99!!
Your cost (minus shipping) would be about $0.20 per gallon.
Here's a weird question... Does your LFS sell pre-mixed saltwater? What is their price per gallon?
Once you're finished with the formalin baths, your salt consumption should drastically reduce if you can get a few pounds of fully cured, non-infected LR (perhaps from the LFS). You would then be able to establish biological filtration in the QT tank while the main tank goes fallow. The cost of a few pieces of LR is probably going to be cheaper than 3 months of water changes.
How many more formalin baths are you planning to do?
Your cost (minus shipping) would be about $0.20 per gallon.
Here's a weird question... Does your LFS sell pre-mixed saltwater? What is their price per gallon?
Once you're finished with the formalin baths, your salt consumption should drastically reduce if you can get a few pounds of fully cured, non-infected LR (perhaps from the LFS). You would then be able to establish biological filtration in the QT tank while the main tank goes fallow. The cost of a few pieces of LR is probably going to be cheaper than 3 months of water changes.
How many more formalin baths are you planning to do?
Sarah,
Get some sponge filters in the QT. Lots. Use the stuff for Aquaclears from Petco. Over a couple weeks it will go a long way in reducing the NH3. Measure NH3 daily. If you can keep it below .25 at your ph you can get by with the smaller WC %. You really only have to get through the first couple weeks. Then the bacteria will start to build up. Amquel or Prime will help too. Just be aware you may get false readings when using them. The key here is you must start to build up your bacteria base in the QT.
Or get a couple lbs of LR from Paljets. He has a pretty good deal. Or Ocean Art is shutting down. They have lots of LR they are selling off. Been in the tanks for 4 yrs. Instant bio filter. Cheaper than $100s in salt.
Get some sponge filters in the QT. Lots. Use the stuff for Aquaclears from Petco. Over a couple weeks it will go a long way in reducing the NH3. Measure NH3 daily. If you can keep it below .25 at your ph you can get by with the smaller WC %. You really only have to get through the first couple weeks. Then the bacteria will start to build up. Amquel or Prime will help too. Just be aware you may get false readings when using them. The key here is you must start to build up your bacteria base in the QT.
Or get a couple lbs of LR from Paljets. He has a pretty good deal. Or Ocean Art is shutting down. They have lots of LR they are selling off. Been in the tanks for 4 yrs. Instant bio filter. Cheaper than $100s in salt.
sarahdae
Member
I am definitely not re-using the old bath, it gets tossed out after the bath. My firefish and bicolor died after the bath, I belive they were already too weak, and the stress put them over the edge. ON the up side, all other fish seem to be eating well, and the signs of brook are nearly gone. I plan to do a bath every other day, and do a total of 5 treatments, some suggest 3 treatments, any opinions?
Although it may seem to one poster that I am indecisive, I am simply thinking out loud on this forum and trying to get as much advice as possible before proceeding into previously uncharted territory.
Secondly, I don't want to sell of all my stuff and go dry for a year or two. I've got great LR in my tank, and some stock I am not willing to part with, including 3 beautiful RBTA anemones.
Buying the cheap salt from drfostersmith is a great idea, and that combined with trying to establish a biofilter in my tank will cut my costs and effort down dramatically. Thanks guys for the suggestions. I may look into getting some bio media from other reefer's healthy tanks. And I also may part with a few fish, but not all, keeping my very favorites, and focusing on keeping the best environment for them.
I have read that doing 90% waterchanges is absolutely fine as long as the parameters match exactly. Including temp, salinity, & Ph. I can't see why this would be a problem with fish, if the parameters are the same. However, my preference would definitely be to NOT have to change this much water.
As far as getting some beneficial bacteria in there, I thought it took quite a while to establish...like 4-6 weeks for cycle.
Well it definitely cant hurt to try and establish bio filtration as soon as possible, and I will be buying a seachem test kit which measures "free ammonia", that is, only harmful ammonia. According to seachem, it is designed to give accurate results after using prime. The kit also includes a "total ammonia" test which is just good to know, how much is in there to begin with, both ammonia and the non-toxic form, ammonium.
The seachem badge reflects harmful ammonia only, but is only a general "red flag" device, not for getting accurate mesaurments.
I actually have to go and buy another seachem badge now...I think I screwed it up. I put pure ammonia on the sensor to try and test it out...bad idea. I know, what the he** was I thinking.
I did that wondering if it really worked. Well needless to say, it hasn't worked right since...wont go back to yellow even in freshly mixed salt water. Some say putting it in vinegar will "reset" it. That won't work either, so I know its definitely ruined. After reading the instructions, it says to not touch the sensor with fingertips...oops again.
I am learning much through trial and error these days...
And as far as brooklynella, I've never seen such a fast acting lethal disease. My inital "wait it out response" was due to not knowing HOW LETHAL this disease is, I really thought it might be like ich or something, where they can fight it off. I did my research on the forum, finding out that a mass infection like this involves nearly 100% mortality in all infected fish, unless treated.
You better bet I aint letting this bast*rd in my tank again. Or anything else...to the best of my ability. Of course, I have read stories of the 6-8wk QT fish that finally went in the display and still passed along a disease, but that is fairly rare I would think.
Hopefully all reading this can learn from my experiences and avoid the same, as many people are underinformed on this disease.
Although it may seem to one poster that I am indecisive, I am simply thinking out loud on this forum and trying to get as much advice as possible before proceeding into previously uncharted territory.
Secondly, I don't want to sell of all my stuff and go dry for a year or two. I've got great LR in my tank, and some stock I am not willing to part with, including 3 beautiful RBTA anemones.
Buying the cheap salt from drfostersmith is a great idea, and that combined with trying to establish a biofilter in my tank will cut my costs and effort down dramatically. Thanks guys for the suggestions. I may look into getting some bio media from other reefer's healthy tanks. And I also may part with a few fish, but not all, keeping my very favorites, and focusing on keeping the best environment for them.
I have read that doing 90% waterchanges is absolutely fine as long as the parameters match exactly. Including temp, salinity, & Ph. I can't see why this would be a problem with fish, if the parameters are the same. However, my preference would definitely be to NOT have to change this much water.
As far as getting some beneficial bacteria in there, I thought it took quite a while to establish...like 4-6 weeks for cycle.
Well it definitely cant hurt to try and establish bio filtration as soon as possible, and I will be buying a seachem test kit which measures "free ammonia", that is, only harmful ammonia. According to seachem, it is designed to give accurate results after using prime. The kit also includes a "total ammonia" test which is just good to know, how much is in there to begin with, both ammonia and the non-toxic form, ammonium.
The seachem badge reflects harmful ammonia only, but is only a general "red flag" device, not for getting accurate mesaurments.
I actually have to go and buy another seachem badge now...I think I screwed it up. I put pure ammonia on the sensor to try and test it out...bad idea. I know, what the he** was I thinking.
I did that wondering if it really worked. Well needless to say, it hasn't worked right since...wont go back to yellow even in freshly mixed salt water. Some say putting it in vinegar will "reset" it. That won't work either, so I know its definitely ruined. After reading the instructions, it says to not touch the sensor with fingertips...oops again.
I am learning much through trial and error these days...
And as far as brooklynella, I've never seen such a fast acting lethal disease. My inital "wait it out response" was due to not knowing HOW LETHAL this disease is, I really thought it might be like ich or something, where they can fight it off. I did my research on the forum, finding out that a mass infection like this involves nearly 100% mortality in all infected fish, unless treated.
You better bet I aint letting this bast*rd in my tank again. Or anything else...to the best of my ability. Of course, I have read stories of the 6-8wk QT fish that finally went in the display and still passed along a disease, but that is fairly rare I would think.
Hopefully all reading this can learn from my experiences and avoid the same, as many people are underinformed on this disease.
Heed my advice. Do not do 90% water changes. Whatever you read is either WRONG or you READ it wrong. Either way do not do 90% water changes. You can do 50% water change ONLY IF temp, ph and salinity are on the mark. Much better to do two 50% water changes in a day then a single 90%.
The reason is there are a large number of other parameter besides ph, temp, and salinity that you CANNNOT test for, and changing 90% of the water every day or two will cause tremendous stress on the already weakened fish. A completely healthy fish will not do very well with 90% water changes and your dying fish will CERTAINLY not be able to handle it.
anyway, people are giving you good advice but instead of just blindly taking advice why dont you do some back up research in a book or two, or even wetwebmedia.
good luck to you
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