Live rock versus Submerged Bioballs in a reef

[flfirefighter13]

I've been thinking about refugiums and live rock export for awhile here, and something in the Duplex sump thread made me wonder if anyone has done any research as to the effectiveness of fully submerged bioballs in a refugium versus live rock. The common thought im seeing is that porous LR contains more places for bacteria to colonize that will keep nitrates down. Wet dries are supposed "Nitrate Factories"
My question is this does the LR do something other than colonize with bacteria, wouldn't this bacteria colonize just as readily on a bioball? What exactly in a wet dry allows nitrates to build, the aerobic portion?
If we where to fill a refugium with bioballs under eggcrate and macroalgae on top would we create a area that would have tons of surface area and not cost as much as rock?

My theory is that by having high flow through the submerged bioballs to reduce detritus buildup we will have the massive surface area of LR with the macro on top baffled to lower flow. This should reduce setup cost and the need to harvest rock. The Bioballs should also have sponges and stuff grow on them over time I would imagine. Anyone experimented with this, would taking the Dry part out of a wet dry filter reduce nitrates or am I missing something entirely?

 

[vikubz]

The nitrate reducing bacteria which we want are anaerobic. They will occur deeper inside LR or in low oxygen areas of sand beds. Since bioballs are not porous, water can't penetrate them, so bacteria growth can only happen on the high oxygen environment on the surface of the bio ball.

 

[flfirefighter13]

If thats the case then how about the ceramic rings instead of bioballs?

 

[Claeth]

Here's the option that I took with this situation.
My 75 gallon SPS tank is a Uniquarium by clear for life. Bieng that it has a built in trickle (wet/dry) filter in the back, I decided to replace the bio-balls with live rock rubble. Thus, the problem of nitrate build up is decreased by the water that is actually passing through the rock as well as the benifits of the water passing over the rock. This system has been up and running for 3 years now, and I find that the Nitrate levels are kept constantly lower than with the bio-balls, but yet still existant. With my regular water change schedule of 15 gallons every 2 weeks, I can keep this level from rising above stress levels. IMHO the best way to reduce NO3 in a system is good husbandry. Dilution is the solution to the pollution. The best way naturally for the lazy reefer to do it would be add a large plenum, a large refugium, a moderately deep (2-3") sand bed in the main display, and still do periodic water changes.

 

[cloudancer]

What about using open cell foam? At least some forms should be non-reactive (plastic) and have diffusion characteristics of sand (or maybe LR).

I have no idea if it would work, but thought I would throw it out there.

 

[Tigger240]

foam = trapped detritus.

if your worried about nitrates, use macro algea, ats, deep sand bed in a bucket, long coil of small tubing that trickels water slowly for a month and then slowly open it up, then after a while you can run it wide open.

 

[flfirefighter13]

I agree foam would trap detritus, I dont really have a nitrate problem im in the process of building a 125..... well actually 3 of them, but this one is going to be full reef. Im wondering what the best use of the sump would be, I currently plan to have a 75 g tank with the skimmer and return, as well as a decent amount of macro, I was just thinking theres got to be something cheap that will provide the benefits of live rock, and possibly more surface area to put in the sump where it will never be seen. I imagine the flora and fauna would grow onto just about anything I used, just looking for new ideas.

 

[mr.wilson]

Unfortunately, bioballs are neither here nor there. They have too much void space for denitrifying bacteria to populate, and not enough void space for benthic invertebrates. They also trap a lot of air bubbles, which interferes with biological processes.

 

[Stoney Mahony]

I had 10gallons of bioballs in my wet dry under my 55gal SPS tank. Nitrates were not detectable after a year of set up. I changed things around in my sump and submerged all of the balls. Nitrates went up to around 4 in 2 weeks. Since then, I have slowly taken all of them out, added a filter sock, and they are undetectable again. I think that there is definately something out there that will work as good or better than live rock, just got to find it. The ceramic sounds like a good Idea, Maybe even semi-crush them to fit more in a given area.

 

[flfirefighter13]

Hmm interesting thought about bioballs trapping air, hadnt thought of it, wont LR do the same though?

Stoney, thanks for the numbers, proves something now I dont have to test. Im thinking tyhe crushed ceramics and mixing with a little paste to make a somewhat DIY LR.... Gotta check bulk prices and seeif feasible

 

[Claeth]

why not just use the bio-rocker filter?
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=6&pCatId=8178
It claims to have the highest surface area media on the market, even comparable to live rock. Something like 1000 gallons of bioballs. And they make a Denitrifier block as well. Anybody tried one of these?

 

[flfirefighter13]

Claeth, That uis the perfect media, but im thinking of just dropping it in the sump, not a biorocker. Im in the midst of one build right now, then I will be rebuilding my reef tank, I think Im going to try it in the refugium and see what happens

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I think somebody needs to post this. The more efficient a wet/dry is the faster it produces an excess of nitrates.

Review the environmental requirements of denitrifying bacteria and go purchase some liverock or make your own. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

[flfirefighter13]

"Review the environmental requirements of denitrifying bacteria"
Will do gladly, any recomendations as to a good source of info?

As far as the wheel, not trying to reinvent it, merely looking at other options, Why invest in LR that cost a fortune as well as must be harvested from the ocean if there is something equally effective out there that does not require striping the ocean, and killing off tons of life in shiping. Im sure we arent going to com,e across anything earthbreaking but that doesnt mean we cant pick eachothers brains

 

[Stoney Mahony]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8757255#post8757255 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
I think somebody needs to post this. The more efficient a wet/dry is the faster it produces an excess of nitrates.

Review the environmental requirements of denitrifying bacteria and go purchase some liverock or make your own. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

Man, thats a bunch of crap. Live rock does not have the greatest surface area for colonization known to man. Just b/c it works and people stopped looking for somthing better doesn't mean that there isn't something better. I could see a large block with micro pores working better than live rock b/c you wouldnt have the void space in between pieces. If people didn't reinvent the wheel everyday, the human civilization would crumble! They make impellers for powerheads but people reinvent them everyday and get much better results. Very negative attitude for someone with so many posts. I think sombody needed to post this.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8757718#post8757718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stoney Mahony
Man, thats a bunch of crap. Live rock does not have the greatest surface area for colonization known to man. Just b/c it works and people stopped looking for somthing better doesn't mean that there isn't something better. I could see a large block with micro pores working better than live rock b/c you wouldnt have the void space in between pieces. If people didn't reinvent the wheel everyday, the human civilization would crumble! They make impellers for powerheads but people reinvent them everyday and get much better results. Very negative attitude for someone with so many posts. I think sombody needed to post this.

Agreed- except the part about having a negative attitude. Maybe it's you that needs to adjust the attitude before posting, Stoney.
I never said that LR has the greatest surface area for colonization.
In fact, anaerobic bacteria thrive in areas void of oxygen- not on the surfaces of objects.
You could make your own block with micro pores- but then you still wouldn't have all of the other benefits afforded by real live rock. LR is fairly inexpensive for the benefits it offers, IMO.
Ethical LR collection does take place.
Moving forward with constructive suggestions, you might choose to install a deep sand bed if you object to using liverock or making your own.

 

[Stoney Mahony]

I stand by what I said. There was nothing constructive in your first post only negativity. A question was posted, a discussion was being had and you jump in and say stop trying...that kind of talk makes me sick. I am well aware of the biological processes and requirements of anaerobic/ denitrifying/ nitrifying bacteria and live rock is not the best solution the world has to offer. In life there is always a better way, even if we don't always know it.

 

[flfirefighter13]

New question: What is it about LR that makes it so much better in a sump. A chunk of filter material surronded by a bunch of broken pieces of the same material should do several things. First it will provide more surface area than rock, the inside areas will be just as Anaerobic as the inside of live rock from what I can figure. The crumbled stuff would allow for natural growth on it just like LR does. Basically it could be DIY LR with tons more surface area due to being made with a material with lots of micro pours. Wont the center area be just as void of oxygen as live rock is?

A deep sand bed gives tons of surface are for bacteria but does not give the surface area for growth of algae, sponges and other critters that help the "ecosystem" we are trying to create. Maybe putting the sand bed under this stuff would be a good idea.

I am not against harvesting LR, In the tank it is great and helps people create a more natural environment for their critters, I just dont see the need to use it in a sump that is not seen and only serves for filtration.

Stoney "In life there is always a better way, even if we don't always know it." is the best quote Ive seen in a while and sums up why I started this thread perfectly!

 

["Umm fish?"]

New question: What is it about LR that makes it so much better in a sump. A chunk of filter material surronded by a bunch of broken pieces of the same material should do several things. First it will provide more surface area than rock, the inside areas will be just as Anaerobic as the inside of live rock from what I can figure. The crumbled stuff would allow for natural growth on it just like LR does. Basically it could be DIY LR with tons more surface area due to being made with a material with lots of micro pours. Wont the center area be just as void of oxygen as live rock is?

My take? You will see large amounts of detrius build-up. Why do you see it with filter socks and bioballs and not with live rock? Live rock gives you lots of small animals that reduce detrius quickly to small enough pieces that bacteria can then process it quickly.

 

[flfirefighter13]

Would seeding refugium with some LR add these small creatures, Even if it took a while I imagine it should work out in the long term.