live rock

What I'm saying is what SPECIFICALLY are you talking about?

You just gave me a text-book definition of biodiversity... I'm well aware of what biodiversity itself is. :)

What I'm asking is what comes on "live-rock" that wouldn't be on base rock once it goes live? The answer? Very little if its not straight out of the ocean. :)

Brandon
 
I would try to find someone who wants to sell rock from an established tank. If you can't do that I would try to find base rock and seed it with a few pieces of live rock. Personally, I have found some very interesting pieces of lace rock at a landscaping place. They had some need shelves and holes that allow for the building of caves and overhangs. I had that for years without problems. As far as diversity, you can get a cup of sand from several others as has been suggested. If you can't find everything you want you can buy worms, pods, micro stars, mysis, or whatever online.

While spending a lot of money on live rock is one way to get started, it's certainly not the only way; especially if you're on a tight budget.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14352466#post14352466 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NeveSSL
What I'm saying is what SPECIFICALLY are you talking about?

You just gave me a text-book definition of biodiversity... I'm well aware of what biodiversity itself is. :)

What I'm asking is what comes on "live-rock" that wouldn't be on base rock once it goes live? The answer? Very little if its not straight out of the ocean. :)

Brandon

Like i said before, there will be less variance in species with addition of base rock vs adding uncured live rock from different ecosystems.

Again you are confusing abundance with variation. Adding base rock will eventually give you the benifits of live rock. I'm not denying that. What it will not do is add variance in species.

To prove this to you i'd have to setup up an experiment with two tanks, one with cured live rock and base rock, and one tank with uncured live rock from different ecosystems. Then examine the microorganisms in each tank as the tank matures and study the benifits of these organisms. But with the scientific information available today, this information is almost apriori.

Did you want me to go through the list of millions of microorganisms and their benefits?

I guess i could contact a Marine biologist and get more clarity on the topic.
 
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ai-reefer, I think what Brandon is asking is what specific species would be missing, and what does it matter if they are. Frankly, I'd rather have less variance if what I do have is all good, and I'm not having to fight with the bad that's coming out of the ocean. I could be mistaken, but I think that's what he's asking.
 
Well I think this is always a funny argument that people get into about Live rock. The diversity you are talking about could be good and could be very bad. Also live rock should never be called live rock unless it is shipped in water moving. If you ever watched how it is harvested and shipped you may want to call it by the right name as Dyeing rock and you just hope you get it before it is all dead if you are getting it from a Internet place. Bio diversity is also accomplished by adding corals and small pieces of rock from the ocean and then it is seeded into a tank and over time spread to others. Again in some cases good and some bad for those who have dealt with red bugs and nudies. :) All that being said I sent you a pm to answer your first question.
 
I ordered my last round of rock from marcorocks.com. I heard for a while that they had some supply chain issues, which I have also heard have been handled.

It comes dry and is incredibly porous. Because you aren't paying for water weight and there's so many holes in it, 50 lbs was more than enough for a 90 gallons. With tax and shipping I got the rock at my door for less than $3/lb (around 2 years ago, not sure how much it's changed).

On the issue of biodiversity, I specifically bought dry rock to avoid a number of specific critters and algaes that can come in on live rock.

I don't intend to start an argument by saying this, but I think biodiversity is a little bit overblown when talking about our tanks.

A relatively small amount of the stuff that comes in on the live rock is actually going to beneficial and thrive in a captive system. A lot of the stuff will die off in the first couple of weeks from transport (e.g., the vast majority of sponges) and quite a few others will die in the weeks afterward because they are ill-suited to the tank conditions you are trying to establish. Finally, specific species are going to be better suited to the tank conditions an inevitably one or two will come to "rule the roost." Some hitchhikers are more than able to reach plague proportions in a tank (specifically algaes which are happily fed off of the die off that will usually happen with uncured fresh rock). Also, for every one or two species that are beneficial, you're probably bringing in 1 or 2 that aren't. Getting a rogue crab or mantis shrimp out of a large tank can be nearly impossible.

Also, as you add corals to your tank, you're likely bringing in small amounts of substrate from other tanks with them. This is a blessing and a curse from the standpoint of hitchhikers. It's a good way to increase the diversity of species in your tank. If those species just so happen to be coral pests or otherwise undesirable critters, you've just added that to your tank. This is, of course, why it is recommended to QT and this is where you can let the good stuff through and do your best to prevent the bad stuff getting in. It's a lot easier to do that when you're dealing with small bits of rock/corals than it is to monitor 100 lbs of rock.

Of course, it all comes down to what you can afford, what you're willing to deal with, and your own philosophy on what you want your reef to look like. I prefer to start with a clean slate and try my best to control what goes in my tank as opposed to starting with a whole bunch of stuff and having to weed certain things out.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14347721#post14347721 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ai-reefer
You want the rock to look like this...

See in the center its not dense, you can see right through it. This rock will allow more bacteria to flow through it.
Base Rock from reefcleaners.org is much better than most places. You can clearly see the difference in density.

33ce6ebeaa2166e1f862dac74c81818f.jpg

aireefer, thanks for this info about reefcleaners, I never knew that they sold rock until your post. I purchased 50 pounds of this rock and received it last week. Every single rock I got looked almost exactly like this, it is VERY nice rock. I don't think it's necessarily any better than Marco (at least the older style stuff I got a year ago), but it's more random looking, which I like. The marco rock is very obviously coral colony shaped, and some of it is more tabular in shape. I really like this rock, got a good deal on it ($135 shipped for 50 pounds) got about 10 very nice chucks of rock, and I think it will be great in my tank.

Thanks!
 
for your viewing pleasure, here is 30lbs of ecorox from bulk reef supply. it looks like they have a new cheaper category that they are calling "Reef Saver Eco Rox" (which looks to be the same as marcorocks.com new "deco rock") but this is from the "Dry Fuji Live Rock" category





here is 25lbs of marcorocks new "Deco Rock"




this is waaaaaay too much for my 29, but my plan is to pick & choose the pieces i want for a structure & then take a chisel to some of the pieces & break them into smaller pieces for the rock wall. lastly, i'll take 1 or 2 pieces & beat the living crap out of them till i have some good rubble for the bubble traps in the sump :D
 
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