Lost one Anthias already

[Spyderturbo007]

I purchased two Female Lyretail Anthias yesterday at the LFS. I used saltwater I had made up from about a week ago and salinity matched the QT with the LFS water (1.022).

I floated them for about 30 minutes to match temperature and then transferred them to the QT. They were swimming around for awhile and I checked on them before I went to be last night.

When I went down this afternoon, one of them was dead laying at the bottom of the tank. It's mouth was open and both gills were open. The other is hiding and seems to be breathing heavily. I don't see any visual signs of disease.

The QT has a HOB filter, new media, a digital thermometer (79.3 degrees), a piece of PVC, and air stone and a few small pieces of rubble rock from my DT that I am using to supply the biological filtration.

I also have an ammonia badge in the tank as well.

I lost a tang from a combination of Ich / Lymphocystis in that tank, but I washed the tank and filter out with a bleach solution. I made sure I rinsed it out thoroughly and dried it out before using.

Is there anything I can do? This is the second fish I've lost in 2 weeks in QT and I'm starting to get frustrated and feel terrible for these poor fish. My wife calls the QT the tank of death and I'm starting to agree.

 

[alprazo]

You need to make sure that the pH matches in addition to temp and less important salinity.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying that I need to adjust the pH to help the other Anthias?

 

[MuffsAbby]

I suspect he was referring to your acclimation process, although there's not much you can do about that now. I know you said you have an ammonia badge on the tank, but just to be safe, you might also directly test for ammonia. Does your remaining anthias show any interest in food? Were they eating at the LFS?

 

[Spyderturbo007]

I was going by Sk8r's acclimation guide that eluded to a pH test being optional. I guess I just assumed it wasn't really necessary.

I tested ammonia and it was 0ppm. The remaining Anthias didn't want to eat yesterday when I tried to feed her.

According to the LFS, they were eating, but I didn't see them eat for myself. One good thing is that she was alive this morning before I left for work.

 

[marinemanohio]

Hopefully/probably a stupid question, but are you sure you fully detoxed the bleach? Usually vinegar will accomplish the same basic cleansing in a much less toxic manner...

 

[Spyderturbo007]

I rinsed it thoroughly, made sure it was dry and didn't smell like bleach before I used it.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

The other poor little fish died sometime between 8am and 1pm. :sad1:

I feel terrible. I wish I knew where I went wrong. I've lost the last 3 fish I've bought. I'm ready to give up.

 

[b0bab0ey]

The other poor little fish died sometime between 8am and 1pm. :sad1:

I feel terrible. I wish I knew where I went wrong. I've lost the last 3 fish I've bought. I'm ready to give up.

I read all of your posts in this thread and this sounds exactly like my 2011. Every fish I bought either died, or I had to go thru hell to get them healthy in QT. Then I started to think maybe it's not me, but who I'm buying all these fish from. So, I started buying all my livestock online (Liveaquaria), and then I ended up finding some different LFS with better livestock. This combination has changed my fortunes drastically, so much so that now people are paying me to QT their fish for them. So, don't give up. Just look at everything you're doing, and find ways you can do some things differently.

 

[MuffsAbby]

Sorry to hear about your anthias. You earlier said you matched the salinity to your LFS (1.022). Did you actually test the water in the bag, or was 1.022 what your LFS told you? I ask because I've had stores tell me they keep their salinity at about 1.022, only to test and discover it was much lower. Other than potentially that, I can't see anything you did wrong, or at least sufficiently wrong to have cause the fish to die, so don't beat yourself up too much. When you do buy another fish from an LFS, you might ask to see the fish eat prior to buying it.

 

[Mrscribbled]

You must use an acclimation process such as a drip method so the new fish do not get ph shock. Low oxygen and high ammonia in shipping bags can drop ph levels to 7. Putting a fish from ph of 7 to 8.2 will kill them.

 

[alprazo]

Another thing to consider when acclimating fish, ammonia is much less toxic with lower pH levels. If there is testable ammonia in the bag, add amquel before bringing up the pH. Otherwise your fish could suffer from ammonia toxicity while acclimating. This is more of an issue with online shipping and not a trip home from the LFS.

If you test the bag, a pH of 7 in the shipping bag water is not unusual for overnight shipping. As for salinity, rapid increases appears to cause more issues than decreases. When I used to do hypo, I would go from 1.023 to 1.009 within 20 minutes without ever having an issue.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Speaking of acclimation, Sk8r wrote a good sticky on that subject here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1939508

 

[Spyderturbo007]

Then I started to think maybe it's not me, but who I'm buying all these fish from. So, I started buying all my livestock online (Liveaquaria), and then I ended up finding some different LFS with better livestock.

My Brother in Law brought this up when I told him what happened. He went to That Fish Place with me and said it seemed like there were a lot of dead fish in their fish room. I guess I should have know when I bought 2 of the 4 Anthias they had. One of them was dead in the tank and the other didn't look too good. I just assumed that since the ones I bought looked good it wasn't an issue.

When you buy online, what do you do about not being home to receive the package? I work everyday so I wouldn't be there to acclimate them when they arrived.

Did you actually test the water in the bag, or was 1.022 what your LFS told you?

I actually tested the bag when I got it home and it was 1.022.

Low oxygen and high ammonia in shipping bags can drop ph levels to 7.

I'll definitely check the pH next time, but I'm thinking that probably wasn't the issue because it was only in the bag for 40 minutes on the way home. The LFS fills the bags with pure oxygen.

Speaking of acclimation, Sk8r wrote a good sticky on that subject here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1939508

That's the guide that I used. I guess I just glazed over the pH part of his post. Anyone know what is considered "an acceptable range" for pH?

 

[Mrscribbled]

My Brother in Law brought this up when I told him what happened. He went to That Fish Place with me and said it seemed like there were a lot of dead fish in their fish room. I guess I should have know when I bought 2 of the 4 Anthias they had. One of them was dead in the tank and the other didn't look too good. I just assumed that since the ones I bought looked good it wasn't an issue.

When you buy online, what do you do about not being home to receive the package? I work everyday so I wouldn't be there to acclimate them when they arrived.



I actually tested the bag when I got it home and it was 1.022.



I'll definitely check the pH next time, but I'm thinking that probably wasn't the issue because it was only in the bag for 40 minutes on the way home. The LFS fills the bags with pure oxygen.



That's the guide that I used. I guess I just glazed over the pH part of his post. Anyone know what is considered "an acceptable range" for pH?

8.0 to 8.4

 

[Psionicdragon]

Three causes based on your description:

1) Ammonia
2) Leftover bleach
3) Ph shock

The badge might not be functioning correctly. You may need to retest your water.
In regards to using bleach, usually rinse it out really well and add dechol like prime and let it stir for awhile. Use a higher dosage as bleach is some really strong stuff. PH shock, refer to everyone else's post.

 

[alprazo]

Three causes based on your description:

1) Ammonia
2) Leftover bleach
3) Ph shock

Agree.

Sodium Thiosulfate should be used to inactive bleach. It is cheap. I posted a mycobacterium protocol a while back that goes over how to properly disinfect a tank. If you can't find it, let me know and I will re-post.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

It wasn't Ammonia. The saltwater was fresh and after losing both fish it was tested and read 0ppm. I doubt it was the bleach because everything was rinsed thoroughly, dried and allowed to sit.

pH shock is a possibility, but there is no way for me to know since I didn't test the bag water.

It's also possible that the fish were just sick too. When I bought them there were 4 in the tank. Two looked good, one looked sick and there was actually one that was dead laying in the tank. Perhaps that should have been a sign.

 

[alprazo]

I would say the dead fish was a bad sign. I have had nothing but good luck with TFP/TPP. Though I do admit that I will watch a fish for at least 30 min. Any abnormal behavior at all and it stays in the store. No a full proof method at all though.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

I keep having terrible luck at That Fish Place. The last fish I bought there was a Tomini Tang that ended up having Lymphocystis and Ich. He died after about 2 weeks and then I lose both Anthias.

When I was there on Saturday I counted about 9 dead fish and 3 or 4 more that were obviously on their way out. 20 years ago when I had my last tank, that was the place to go. Now, I'm not so sure anymore. I just don't understand why you would allow so many dead fish to accumulate in your tanks. It just seems like no one cares.

The only thing they have going for them is their equipment and dry goods pricing. Along with the guy named Jeff that is very knowledgeable and always helpful.

I've been considering purchasing my livestock elsewhere.