low organics=pale sps?

kevensquint

Active member
Hello, I read in a thread the other day someone wondering why the new sps addition turned pale after a week. Most said due to too much light too fast, but some said nitrates could be too low. Is that really a factor for vibrant colors?. Everyone proudly claims 0ppm nitrates.....so what is the answer? No organics with $1000 skimmers, macro algae sumps and water changes, or do we let loose a little and let the tank get a bit dirty?
 
i do find it amusing how many people claim 0 nitrates. Frankly i think its ReefCentral ego's claiming that they are running a perfect tank, when in mot cases they dont even test. i put very little faith in the numbers people claim with regard to "bad" dissolved ions. I am all for keeping PO4 low, but my nitrates are between 3-5ppm pretty much all the time...My SPS do fine and have nice colors. (for the most part)

strictly speaking, for a compound to be "organic" it must contain carbon-- however, NO3 is a biproduct of decomposition of organic waste, specifically, when proteins are metabolized (waste) nitrogenous compounds are released-- their amino acid subunits are the source of NH4 which fuels the nitrogen cycle.
 
Under 5ppm NO3 is fine.

The last time I tested for NO3 mine was .2ppm on a salifert kit. This was about a year ago but the tank was 1.5yrs old at the time. I run bio-pellets so Im sure that has something to do with it. If I had a kit I would test again out of curiosity.

i do find it amusing how many people claim 0 nitrates. Frankly i think its ReefCentral ego's claiming that they are running a perfect tank, when in mot cases they dont even test. i put very little faith in the numbers people claim with regard to "bad" dissolved ions. I am all for keeping PO4 low, but my nitrates are between 3-5ppm pretty much all the time...My SPS do fine and have nice colors. (for the most part)

strictly speaking, for a compound to be "organic" it must contain carbon-- however, NO3 is a biproduct of decomposition of organic waste, specifically, when proteins are metabolized (waste) nitrogenous compounds are released-- their amino acid subunits are the source of NH4 which fuels the nitrogen cycle.
 
Hi dvanacker,

I read somewhere on RC that you recommend to feed a good amount of quality food to increase the nutrient for the corals. But at the same time export as much detritus out before they have a chance to break down into Nitrate and Phosphate. How do you recommend do export them before they break down? Vacuum the sand bed, clean and vacuum the sump, filter sock, and big skimmer?

How do you export nutrient before they have a chance to break down in your tank?

thanks
 
THIS Is indeed a good question i would like to see discussed by experts sps reefers: how important is giving food to corals. I have a 180 gallons sps reef. My corals are pale and i question wether can be related to the fact that i dont feed them that much (1 cube of mysis per week). Should i feed them more often? how often? what food).

Indeed if food is so important and nitrates /Po4 should be close to zero should we all buy 1000 dollar skimmers to keep sps?

Thanks
 
Hi dvanacker,

I read somewhere on RC that you recommend to feed a good amount of quality food to increase the nutrient for the corals. But at the same time export as much detritus out before they have a chance to break down into Nitrate and Phosphate. How do you recommend do export them before they break down? Vacuum the sand bed, clean and vacuum the sump, filter sock, and big skimmer?

How do you export nutrient before they have a chance to break down in your tank?

thanks


you use a protein skimmer to remove the proteins from your water before they are degraded to amino acids which are further catabolized to nitrogenous waste (ammonia) which enters the nitrogen cycle.
 
Hi dvanacker,

I read somewhere on RC that you recommend to feed a good amount of quality food to increase the nutrient for the corals. But at the same time export as much detritus out before they have a chance to break down into Nitrate and Phosphate. How do you recommend do export them before they break down? Vacuum the sand bed, clean and vacuum the sump, filter sock, and big skimmer?

How do you export nutrient before they have a chance to break down in your tank?

thanks
Chris got it....yes a nice big skimmer helps deal with organics before they break down further. But also water changes, siphoning of detritus and we can use a carbon source to drive bacteria now as well which all help deal with organics breaking down into PO4 and NO3 and/or helps process these nutrients themselves.

THIS Is indeed a good question i would like to see discussed by experts sps reefers: how important is giving food to corals. I have a 180 gallons sps reef. My corals are pale and i question wether can be related to the fact that i dont feed them that much (1 cube of mysis per week). Should i feed them more often? how often? what food).

Indeed if food is so important and nitrates /Po4 should be close to zero should we all buy 1000 dollar skimmers to keep sps?

Thanks
From my personal experience (and from my research) I get the best coloration and growth when I have a fairly high bioload and feed lots.....yet have a strong filtration system (bio and mech) to deal with the DOC (dissolved organic compounds) and NO3 and PO4.

Look at the water parameters on a healthy natural reef. Full of food in the water column yet nil nitrate and super low phosphate. The answer is right in front of us....

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

In your personal situation it sounds like you are starving your reef.....for easy reference, pale colors usually means the corals are starving or receiving too much light and/or too much light too fast. IF they are browning it means the zoo-x are being feed too much NO3 and PO4 and/or they are not receiving enough light.
 
My nitrates are usually between 1 and 0 when using the low range salifert test. To me when I hit zero it means I need to feed more. If I see it creep above 1 then I know I'm feeding more then my system can handle. My goal is to add as much food as I can without increasing my nutrient levels. The corals consume the food, not the byproduct.
 
commercial growers feed twice a day so heavy you can't see through the water and change 20 % of the water each day. I tried this for a year color and growth have never been the same since i stopped, I also put new socks on every day. this was very expensive and took a lot of time. Needless to say food helps color and growth never knew what No3 or Po4 was i didn't test and still don't
 
The corals consume the food, not the byproduct.

Do we know this for sure?

We do know that high nitrates can result in excess production of zooxanthellae...it stands to reason then that zooxanthellae takes nitrogenous waste as a growth input.

I wonder how much nitrate zooxanthellae metabolize while going about the day to day zooxanthellae life cycle....and if a tank stocked to the rim with corals is in fact easier to keep at low nitrogen levels....

then there is this....I will just leave this here:

Discovery of Symbiotic Nitrogen-Fixing Cyanobacteria in Corals
Lesser, et al.
Science 13 August 2004: 997-1000.
DOI:10.1126/science.1099128

"The δ 15N stable isotope data show a strong nitrogen fixation signal in the zooxanthellae fraction of corals with cyanobacterial symbionts suggesting that zooxanthellae use fixed nitrogen products."

Then this:

The diversity, specificity and flexibility of
Symbiodinium symbioses.

Ove Hoegh-Guldberg
Centre for Marine Studies, University of Queensland, St Lucia 4072 QLD Australia

"Within their host invertebrates, Symbiodinium spp. photosynthesize at rates comparable to free-living dinoflagellates but pass over 90% of the newly fixed carbon to their hosts. In exchange, Symbiodinium receives access to the normally limiting inorganic nitrogen and phosphorous."

"Nitrogen acquisition and assimilation

The relative roles of zooxanthellae and the host in the acquisition and assimilation of nitrogen have been contentious. The database has identified a number of the genes encoding crucial transport proteins and enzymes in this process. As a consequence we can now look at the expression of nitrate and ammonium transporters in zooxanthellae, the subsequent reduction of nitrate to ammonium and its assimilation into glutamine by glutamine synthase. This represents a significant advance in our knowledge and provides the capacity to determine how the expression of these genes changes under different nitrogen regimes."
 
Well the zooxanthellae definitely use NO3 and PO4..they are plants so that is no surprise. But what happens when these zoo-x are well feed....they over populate turning the coral brown and putting the coral into an unhealthy state.

Yes the zoo-x and thus acropora need some NO3 and PO4 but very little. Again look at the low levels on healthy natural reefs.
 
ChrisV

I never said they didn't need some polyatomic ions, or inorganic chemicals as building blocks but they don't consume in the same sense. Are they ingesting these things within the food that we give them, yes. Are they pulling it from the water, I'm not sure? Can I just dose nitrates and phosphates to my tank and not feed my corals be it via photosynthesis or an organic substance of course not. There is no reason to have elevated levels. The goal is to feed as much as you can while maintaining stable, acceptable parameters.
 
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