LR Cooking....Will Prob. regret this.....

[bennyinca]

My LR went into the cooking process for 1.5 months while I upgraded tanks. I did not loose coraline from the rocks, the zoanthids, frilly shrooms, and even an encrusting monti survived (although browned). Lots of crud at the bottom of the drums. Within 2 weeks after putting the LR in the tank, I noticed pods, worms, and starfish still in rocks.

 

[CaveManNOhio]

Ok, I guess I'm way off base then. I guess I'm lucky enough to have a bunch of rock that doesn't have the problems you guys are having to go through this process.
I mean I could see taking some clean SW and rinse them real good and brush during a transfer. But I can't see taking my tank a part to cook rocks. Not when I'm looking at about 250 lbs of rock.

 

[elephen]

I still have pods on the rock I am cooking and yesterday I saw a bristle worm.

I also have feather dusters all over the rock. The rock was originally setting in a dark sump (no light at all) for a little over a year and has been cooking for just short of 2 months.

Still life, just no pest algae's anymore.

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

Okay, I just couldn't read it anymore and thought that I would never post on a Cooking thread or a BB vs DSB, but here it goes. And, in my opinion, nothing that I say is questionable, but just (theoretical*) "facts".

The reason why we cook rocks by placing them in a heated, no light container and put waterflow in it, is to make sure no life or bacteria die off. Since algae needs light, it dies. As a result, all the organics are eaten by the rest of the life forms that don't need light. So, when all the algae is dead, you still have a lot of life. Heck, you might even have more life than before because the animals rely more on a fauna-type food source. Thus creating a chain of "carnivores". But I definitely wouldn't say that it kills all or most life, but just the algae. Lets take the ocean itself for example. There is tons of life in the depths of the ocean that never get light at all.

For example, here's a Deep Sea Isopod (Bathynomus giganticus). It lives without light and is a "pod". Sure, it's huge and will most likely eat anything and everything in our reef tanks. :lmao: So rock cooking shouldn't effect our "pod" populations much at all if something amazing like this can live for eons without seeing any light (except maybe something like bioluminescnense)

Oh, and for fun. Here is a scary picture. I think I may have found a sweet new avatar! :lol:

*just because I've never cooked my rocks. Maybe we shouldn't call it cooked for confusion reasons, but "Stew".

 

[reefpod]

This is what confuses me about cooking rocks. I doesnt seem like your finding out or fixing the problem of why you have the bad algae to begin with.

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

This is where it gets heated, and in my opinion it does and doesn't fix the problem.

What it does fix - You're getting rid of all the algae, and all the tank water and dead algae in the cooking vat either has or turns into organic waste that breaks down through the cycle. Because there is live rock in there and you aren't "feeding" the vat any extra food or organics, the rocks and water in the vat will eventually reach 0 ppm nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia. That is great for everyone, but what about the tank itself?

What it doesn't fix - If you still have the tank running, and you are still doing the process that introduced all the nitrates and phophates in the first place that the algae was growing off of, then once you put the rock back in there, you will grow algae again on your newly cooked live rock. So, in order to make sure that your rock stays "clean", while it is cooking, you need to do proper tank maintenance such as reduce bioload, reduce feedings, waterchanges, etc, etc. i wouldn't even put rock back in it until the tank itself has 0 nitrates and phophates.

I don't follow any rock cooking threads or anything like that. I have just read enough to get the basic concept of why people do it. But, reefpod, that is a very good question. And that is my "logical" answer. So, technically if you go back before cooking the rock basic, simple, and responsible reefkeeping techniques could have prevented this in the first place or even if you started responsible techniques after a problem has occured, then you would have eventually narrowed it down and fixed it anyways. But yet i understand that sometimes, things call for drastic measures. I would just say cook the rock in emergencies only instead of for aesthetic appeal.

I'm definitely not saying that it doesn't work, because logically it does. But what is the point of going through months of no rock for a little algae? Now if your tank was green with hair algae from top to bottom, nitrates at 150+ ppm, and 5 phosphates, then you either need to take down your tank and start over, cook your rocks, or enjoy a "Planted Marine Tank" But in my honest opinion, nothing will ever beat responsible techniques. And because of these techniques is what makes Bare Bottom tanks work. But that is another story....and lets just not go there. That would be thread piracy :lmao:

 

[photobarry]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6436406#post6436406 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefpod
This is what confuses me about cooking rocks. I doesnt seem like your finding out or fixing the problem of why you have the bad algae to begin with.

There's more than one reason to cook live rock. If you have a huge nutrient problem, then it might help as long as you fix the aspect of your tank husbandry that was causing the excessively high nutrients.

I would personally cook rock for a different reason. If I was getting new LR I would cook it to minimize the chance of getting undesireable algae. This would give me a clean surface to mount corals I already have. And this will give them a head start against any algae the does appear.

Whether you cook your rock or not, most of the detritus and nutrients stuck inside of it will make its way out of the rock over time. If you are lucky, this will take place slowly and not ever cause any problems. If you are unlucky....then you might have some algae problems.

 

[gman0526]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6436406#post6436406 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefpod
This is what confuses me about cooking rocks. I doesnt seem like your finding out or fixing the problem of why you have the bad algae to begin with.

You're right. But you can look at it as starting with a clean slate, so to speak. An opportunity to correct the errors you made that allowed the problems to arise in the first place. Or if you're just starting now you'll be giving yourself a little more breathing room to work with. Hope that made sense.

 

[SeanT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6433406#post6433406 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CaveManNOhio

SeanT: do you have any of the little creatures still on or in your rock when it comes out of cooking? Feather duster, copepods, peanut worms, and the things you can only see with a magnifine glass.

Am I right or wrong, don't all of those things die off as well

When I finished "cooking" my rock it had pods, worms, a few featherdusters (I never had that many to begin with) asterina starfish, sponges and many zo's, polyps and mushrooms which made it through the process.
What I didn't have was hair algae.

Sean

 

[CaveManNOhio]

I am starting to understand why it's done. Just don't agree totally with it. I had HA and a lot of the other annoying algaeââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s every one is talking about, bought some critters, changed my tank husbandry and BAM all my algaeââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s are under control and nearly all gone. In tank and done naturally with time. The only thing I am really dealing with now is Aiptasia. And as long as I can control them, I'm not to concerned, one gets to close to coral, kill it. The rest are like all my other critters, they serve a purpose.
It's kind of like your yard, every one hate's the annoying weeds that grow in their yards. So what do they do, treat for those weeds, but how many realize that Grass it self is a weed. It's just one that everyone excepted to keep cause it pretty.

 

[mntl]

Sometimes it is hard to see much benefit with this, especially if you have a sandbed that stops you from seeing the stuff that "sheds" out/off of your rock (sinse it ends up in the sand and not visually on the bottom of the bare tank). I am now on my second BB tank, the first one I did not cook the rock, I simply found clean/cured Lr and placed it in the tank. I had good parameters but the amount of crud that would litterally dump out of the rock daily was amazing. It would easily fill a 1/16 cup of crud daily. This is only in 10 gal of water with 20lbs of LR, no fish/coral/feeding, just a bare tank (I let my tanks establish for a couple months prior to making additions). My new tank I was able to cook the new rocks prior to adding them to the tank. The amount of stuff that i get on the glass daily now is not a fraction of what the smaller tank, with less rock got.

With BB you can see what is making the mess in your tank, especially in a very small tank where you know every nook and cranny in it. You learn what peanut-worm poop looks like compared to snail poop or compared to the dust that comes from the rock. This is not a BB vs DSB thing, I have kept both and honestly I was not aware of the stuff that the rock dumps out untill I had a BB system and could actually watch it, so I am trying to relate this to people who have not had successful/any experience with both methods.

If the only thing in a tank is a piece of LR and you use a turkey baster to get crud off of it, you will notice that there is a TON of stuff that gets blown out of the rock. After syphoning this stuff up you can come back a hour later (after the water clears) and turkey-baste again and notice that hardly anything comes off the rock. BUT, come back a week later and do this again and you will once again have a crud storm. If the only thing in the tank is the rock (no fish/snails/crabs/etc) and you do not feed, then you would have to assume that this is comeing from the stores of crud locked up in the rock. After cooking the rock and duplicating this process, there is a DRASTIC decrease in the amount of crud generated, this is the same crud found in the bottom of the cooking bins (coralation?).

This is not meant to sound negative, I am just trying to explain in very simple terms the stuff that is "lost" from the LR during cooking. If this crud is something that you feel should be in you tank then do not cook. But understand that if I leave this stuff on the bottom of my tank and do not syphon it out, it will become fuzzy with algea over time, and stragely after cooking and removing a good chunk of this crud from my rocks, I do not have visible algea in my tank (besides coraline), which does not all go away with cookng (again, coralation?) .

p.s. This crud is not dead peanut worms, feather dusters, zoos, worms, pods, etc. These are all still visible on the rock and growing, just in the absence of nucense algea .

Hope this helped a bit--John

 

[CaveManNOhio]

That was very well put John. But it still comes back to habits correct? Proper parameters, lighting, feeding, cleaning, and water changes all play a big part of it. When I was going through my issues with annoying algaeââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s I talked with people in my group and lfs, changed some habits and started doing other things and my problems went away. Other than Aiptasia, and that is slowly but surely becoming a none issue.
I could see doing it if you are setting up a new system, how ever in a established system I would have to think that if you got the problem, you helped create the problem, and if you don't change things then your cure is only a short tem fix. IMO

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

John, Cave. Very well put on both parts. And I'm glad someone was able to post what they could see. Sure, it had to be BB to see it, but if someone posted the same answer with floating rock :lmao: (meant to be an oxymoron) and saw the same thing, it's not going to make a difference. So, I vote that just because the word BB came up, this does not allow this thread to go off topic

Now with that off my chest. What exactly is it that comes off the rocks? Sure, poop, dirt, etc, etc. But what does each of those break down to. Sure it will most likely break down to something else and eventually to ammonia, but are we missing a step in our reef tanks? The use of a clean up crew usually does this, but is there another step in our tank that takes care of this that we don't utilize? Something between CleanUp and Bacteria? Oh, well. Just some thoughts as they come to my head. But what will this excess stuff really hurt? If you have ample denitrification methods (various rock, sand beds, reactors, the list goes on) and methods of organic extraction (activated carbon, skimmer, etc), what thread does the "gunk" really pose?

 

[mntl]

Good to hear from you Ohio maybe I will see you at one of the swaps .

In the situation i posted, the rocks were all new-liverock. They were in unfed/unstocked systems with parameters at 0, all that was added was rock and water. The crud that was shedding was in the rock strait from the ocean, so no matter the "habits" I had or was using, it was there (and i specifically pick out extremely clean LR from the get-go so it is not that i was using unusually dirty LR). The coocking process simply helps to keep this stuff from entering the tank in the first place, and leaves you with more of a "fresh-slate" to apply your good habits too, I do not believe that I should add this crud simply to try and remove it later, I am trying to be proactive.

To give you an example of this, my new tank, which has about 4X the volume of my old one and is nearly identical in rock to water volume ratio (accept for the rock cooking) takes less snails to keep spotless. Chaeto barely grew in my old tank (very slowly) it does not grow in this one and I have sinse removed it. My old tank would start to show visible signs of algea (slight green film) on the glass after 3-4 days (only visible if viewed from the side, not from the front) at which time I would use my magfloat to clean. I can now go twice the time inbetween cleaning.

Remeber both tanks had no visible algea and levels were all at 0 and both had similiar growth in corals (once added), one is just simply cleaner and requires less to keep it that way.

In a system that is already established it is a major pita to rip apart and cook the rock, so i can understand why people would not want to do it. After having done it myself I would not think twice about ripping apart an established system. But my tank is very sterile and when I have helped friends set-up their own tanks they usually say they want more of a mixed-reef situation, I usually recommend sand and good cured LR, but their systems also cycle and have minor traces of algea, therefore more snails and chaeto.

I have a desert and want to grow cactus, if you like the rainforest and want orchids then I can understand why this seems extreme.
I am not trying to accomplish the holygrail of perfect acros and elegance, I only grow acro's. That beautiful coral you posted a pic of, I am 100% sure it would slowly shrivel and die in my tank, as do most corals like that, but I have a very hard time killing acros. pic your biotope

--John

 

[CaveManNOhio]

Hey John, I'm actually looking to come up to the swap in Cleveland in March. Hope to see you there.

You stated a very good case as many others. I can now say I would do it if I was starting a new system. But I can't say that I would tare my system apart to do so.

I will say this from discussing the issue more, I will use the turkey baster more to get into some area's. The other thing with my system is I set it up with a lot of flow, to help keep the rocks clean.

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6441633#post6441633 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CaveManNOhio
I will say this from discussing the issue more, I will use the turkey baster more to get into some area's. The other thing with my system is I set it up with a lot of flow, to help keep the rocks clean.

May I suggest a small powerhead instead. Ergonomic and just easier.

 

[CaveManNOhio]

Thank you SDguy.

 

[Surf]

Algae forms spores that can wait out cooking periods, that might be why the rhodophyte persists. you're reducing the algal population, but they'll just create spores and wait it out.

I'm surprised it works for you. I'd think 6 months out you'd be back to square one.

 

[CaveManNOhio]

That's how I see it to. If algae is like mold, you only think you are beating it. It can actually go dormit when the food source isn't there, but when you least expect it, there it is again. Due to the same things that promoted it to begin with will still be in the tank. So it will start to feed again.IMO

 

[mntl]

Ohio--I'llbe there, styrofoam box in hand

Surf---Thanks for the response---I totally understand, But it is not the spores I am attempting to remove, it is the crud inside the rock that gives the spores something to feed on, without it they stay dormant. I fully agree that these spores are still there, as I mentioned before, If i do not remove the crud that comes off of the rocks and settles in places on the bottom of the tank, these little (maybe the size of a pencil eraser) piles will begin to grow algea. At which time I quickly syphon But again, this is not on the rocks themselves, only where this crud is let to accumulate after falling out of the rocks, which is on my glass tank bottom, or in your sandbed. Cooking just drastically limits this "shedding" or makes it happen rapidly in a cooking bin over a few months, other than for an extremely long period of time in my tank.

The red Rhodophytes are not much of an issue because the few visible pieces that have been in my system have been there since the beginning and have not moved, granted they have not gone away either, but it is so minor that you have to look hard to see it and the portions that I physically removed prior to cooking (came in on the rock) have yet to grow back, and this is on 2 year old rock. Every frag I have had tht has come on on a small rock always has some form of algea on it, I used to try and clean it prior to putting it in my tank, now i just put it in and let it die off, takes within a week usually (knock on wood).

After all of this talking I am just waiting to walk up to my tank and see a massive algea explosion :rolleye1: I would'nt be suprised.
I also hope that you guys are not taking this as me saying this is an end-all be-all for algea control, bad habits will make anything turn into a planted tank . But if you do not think that the stuff that sheds from the rock gives algea something to feed on, then take that stuff with you turkey baster and collect it in a little cup inside of your tank, I guarentee that after a few days you will have a nice little lawn in that cup, this tells me that this stuff is realeasing some form of nutrient into the system that is allowing the algea to feed. That is enough of an incentive for me to try and not let it get into my tank in the first place.

John