Mag and Epsom Salt

[Psionicdragon]

I still don't understand the effect of Sulfate in our tank if we use Epsom Salt as a way to raise our Magnesium in a SPS tank.

Can someone explain the effect on SPS, LPS, and fish?

 

[roons]

dont use epsom salts, use tropic marine powder or esv liquid.................in my opinion this goes along the same lines as using mrs wages for kalk, i now use esv as i found mrs wages to turn brown sometimes......................i really dont think trying to save a dollar here and there when your putting sps that can cost up to $100 a clip in your tank is smart..................

 

[Horace]

Roons, I have done quite a bit of reading about kalk on here and you are the first to say anything negative about using Mrs. Wages other than it can eat pump impellers. I have never once heard anyone saying thier tank crashed or SPS died because of Mrs. Wages. So long as you keep it fresh tehre should be no problems.

Also there is nothing wrong with using epsom salts for mag so long as its not used on a long term basis. The problem is there is more sulfate in there than mag. There is a HUGE amount of sulfate in the water already so adding a bit more will not hurt anything. You have to use alot over a long period of time without doing water changes to have any real effect.

If you want to safely DIY mag, use Magnesium Chloride Hexahydrate instead. It wont build up your sulfate like epsom salts.

 

[Lowredranger]

Horace do you know where to get the mag chloride hexahydreate? thanks
Jason

 

[TexasTodd]

So, what IS the long term affect of sufate build up in a SPS reef?

Thanks,

Todd

 

[roons]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6639250#post6639250 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Horace
Roons, I have done quite a bit of reading about kalk on here and you are the first to say anything negative about using Mrs. Wages other than it can eat pump impellers. I have never once heard anyone saying thier tank crashed or SPS died because of Mrs. Wages. So long as you keep it fresh tehre should be no problems.

be that as it may, i can sleep better at night putting something in my tank made by a reputable aquarium supply company like esv than something made for pickling food...............im sure there are stricter guidelines at esv.............


have you ever dumped out some mrs wages on a table and compared it to a pile of esv kalk? i have, there is a color difference, why ? who knows, but esv's is pure white , mrs wages is not

 

[AcroSteve]

What is long term? 2 years, or 10?

 

[Horace]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6639843#post6639843 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lowredranger
Horace do you know where to get the mag chloride hexahydreate? thanks
Jason

Do a search in the chemistry forums for it. The truth of it is that its not that easy to get ahold of. Sometimes you can find it in local hardware stores sold as ice-melt or fertilizer. You should find more info like I said though before doing so.


As for the effect of elevated sulfate levels....I really dont know what will happen. But I do know its always a safe bet that if you start getting too far outside the normal seawater levels, the corals wont react kindly . But like I said, because seawater has a ton of sulfate in it, the little amount your adding by using epsom salts is insignificant. It only becomes a problem with long term use with little to no water changes.

 

[jay24k]

you may sleep better, but that is because your pockets are lighter after paying the high amounts these people charge.

For quality magnesium, buy the MAG Flake from harveysalt.com
It runs about 41 shipped for a 50 pound bag. It's easy to get ahold of, just alot of people don't know.

Epsom Salts isn't bad but sulfate can build up. If you do regular water changes, it isn't too bad but I'd rather do the regular magnesium myself.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The concern with sulfate is hard to quantify as there are no studies of what happens if it is elevated (or depleted) that I have ever seen. It never happens in the oceans, so no professional marine biologist would likely do such a study.

However, the possibility exists to significantly impact the sulfate levels. Boosting magnesium by 400 ppm (or 100 ppm 4 times) will boost sulfate by 1600 ppm. If you start with 2700 ppm sulfate, that is a big change, and is why I recommend avoiding it.

Water changes can, of course, mitigate that concern a bit.

 

[johns]

Couple things-

Those of you who might be using the Two Part recipe that Randy Holmes Farley described in the Chemistry Forum may know that he recommends using the Epsom salts for Mg portion when using his solutions.

Upon asking him about it further, he says he is coming out with a newer version of the recipe using a combination of BOTH Epsom and Mg Chloride for the addition of Mg. Reason being that sulfate builds up using the Epsom according to the current version. But on the other hand, he told me that Chloride will build up if you just use MgCl as well.

be that as it may, i can sleep better at night putting something in my tank made by a reputable aquarium supply company like esv than something made for pickling food...............im sure there are stricter guidelines at esv.............

roons- I think it's crazy to think that there would be stricter guidelines for a chemical being produced for the aquarium hobby than there are for food item. The Food and Drug administration has pretty serious guidelines for anything that will wind up in food products, so you can be pretty sure there aren't toxic metal, etc in this stuff. As for other chemical companies, there are numerous grades of materials. If you look into it further, I think you will be surprised.

That said, I use ESV kalk as well. Why, I honestly dont know. I haven't found an easy source for anything else and havent spent much time looking probably.

 

[johns]

Well I gues I was writing while Randy was writing.

So Randy, how about a little understanding of what we should do if we are using the home-made 2 part?

Is an elevated Cl level as bad / worse than elevated sulfate? Is one more likely to happen than the other? if we use solely Epsom or solely MgCl.

 

[TexasTodd]

O.K., could super high Sulfate levels cause any type of algae growth?

What base are the ESV and Kent Mg additives derived from?

Thanks,

Todd

 

[roons]

johns, you dont think esv has done any research on how their product would react in a reef tank? do you think mrs wages has done any of those tests? i doubt it, this was my point, what the ingredients would affect outside of their supposed use................im sorry , i dont put exotic reef fish and pickles in the same category, perhaps i should

and i dont sleep with my pants on so lighter pockets wouldnt effect me much

 

[Horace]

Basically roons I think like most people in this hobby, you have been roped into thinking that the stuff you put in your tank is some highly complex stuff. This is basic chemistry here for the most part. Lime water is lime water no matter what you call it. All they did was make it a different color and perhaps have it choped up a bit finer and slapped a label on it and called it Kalkwasser which is nothing more than the German word for Lime or Lime water. They know darn well if they called it lime, people would just buy lime....

 

[johns]

you dont think esv has done any research on how their product would react in a reef tank? do you think mrs wages has done any of those tests?

I seriously doubt that EITHER of them have invested in that sort of research quite frankly. I'm sure they just buy huge bulks of lime from someone else that has produced it and slap their labels on them. I'm sure who ever purifies this stuff for them has to provide information that they meet certain specs. And not everyone's specs will be the same.

My only point is, the specs on the amount of impurites, toxic substances, etc for something made food grade is probably going to be as strict or more strict than most other general uses. Should I assume that because something has the words 'reef tank' on it, it is going to be a higher purity than medical grade chemicals as well.

Look... I know nothing about the 2 specs on these 2 products specifically. They may both be food grade for all I know. So I dont exactly know why I'm posting. Except that I just find the'stricter esv guidelines' comment a bit out of touch.

 

[johns]

Well once again someone (Horace this time) bascially posts what I want to say while I'm typing it.

Whatever. I'm more interested in what Randy might have to say in the whole MgCl vs MgSO4 addition question.

Randy-
Do you still recommend a combination addition of these 2 chemicals? When using the homemade Ca and buffers? How about when using the store bought 2-part systems?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

O.K., could super high Sulfate levels cause any type of algae growth?

No.



Folks using my two part system are not as prone to the problem of elevated sulfate as those who are using other methods plus Epsom salts, because the chloride in the calcium chloride largely offsets the sulfate rise. Water changes also limit it, and here is what you can expect using it:

Water Changes in Reef Aquaria
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The improved DIY recipe (using both magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate in the third part) for the two part system completely eliminates any significant disturbance to the top 7 ions in seawater: sodium, chloride, sulfate, magnesium, calcium potassium, and bicarbonate. It will post in a few days at Reefkeeping.com, along with greatly expanded directions and possible substitutions.

Here's a thread about it:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=742944

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As far as I can tell, the ESV and Kent magnesium supplements are ionically balanced and are supplements to use. I expect they use magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate.

Seachem's is not completely balanced, and is essentially a mixture of Epsom salts and sodium chloride. The claim that magnesium chloride is contaminated with ammonia (and some may be), but the magnesium chloride de-icer sold by the Dead Sea Works is fine to use.