Marine ich and UV?

[MrTuskfish]

I think my post #11 above gives an obvious reason why UV can't do anything more than provide a little help. Much of that post comes directly from Snorvich's writings and insight. One thing UV does do very well (outside of clarify water) is to give the appearance and false hope that something positive is being done and its just a matter of time before the UV kills all of the ich. This delays real treatment and can be the difference between a good outcome and a tankful of dead fish.

 

[mskvarenina]

So what about the natural method, garlic based foods, vitamins to build up the immunity of the fish? Does this ever work? I read somewhere that a healthy fish can build up an immunity and if this is true, the free swimmers would not be able to attack the host and ultimately rid the tank of ich?

 

[snorvich]

Garlic has no effect on ich eradication (see this) (and as posted in the ich stickies) and actually is bad for fish long term (see my blog for a post on research done by humaguy)

 

[MrTuskfish]

So what about the natural method, garlic based foods, vitamins to build up the immunity of the fish? Does this ever work? I read somewhere that a healthy fish can build up an immunity and if this is true, the free swimmers would not be able to attack the host and ultimately rid the tank of ich?

You can read anything about our hobby somewhere; real science hasn't been heavily interested in our problems. You can read just about anything somewhere.I would stop looking for magic beans, there aren't any.

A healthy immune system can possibly help some fish to fight off small numbers of the parasite. I also think some fish MAY develop some immunity to SOME strains of ich. Ich may disappear for a while many reasons, its the norm for ich to (seemingly) disappear and then reappear in huge numbers when the stars are aligned properly. However, the only long-term methods of eradicating ich can be found in Snorvich's posts and stickys. If you don't permanently get rid of all ich, in all phases, and keep it out through a good QT regimen; The ich will always win. Your problem is, by far, the most common topic on the disease forum. If there were an easier, softer way, you wouldn't have to hunt for it; it would be posted all over the internet.

 

[mskvarenina]

So what's the downside to dosing the entire DT with copper if it's a FO tank? In the past I used to dose my only tank with copper when I had issues and everything seemed OK.

 

[MrTuskfish]

So what's the downside to dosing the entire DT with copper if it's a FO tank? In the past I used to dose my only tank with copper when I had issues and everything seemed OK.

LR & substrate absorb and release copper, making proper monitoring of copper levels impossible. If the copper isn't the water column at effective ich killing levels 24/7; the entire treatment has been compromised. Copper also kills most of the micro-life on the LR, creating more ammonia. You have no way of knowing how much copper remains in the tank after treatment and long term exposure to any significant level of copper sounds (I have no proof) dangerous.

 

[snorvich]

Rather than reading the stickies and intelligently trying to figure out what would be the best way for the OP to handle ich, the OP is using everyone's time trying to tell the OP why what he wants to do is wrong and will be problematic. Which I suppose is ok, except the fish are not being treated.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Rather than reading the stickies and intelligently trying to figure out what would be the best way for the OP to handle ich, the OP is using everyone's time trying to tell the OP why what he wants to do is wrong and will be problematic. Which I suppose is ok, except the fish are not being treated.

Or waiting for a response that justifies something that's already been done. I'm obviously unusually serene and patient today.

 

[mskvarenina]

I read through all the stickies, some are many years old and have varying information. I felt a fresh question and fresh current answers would be the best approach.

Well The QT tank is almost setup, now I'm working on getting all the livestock out.

Is ich something that just develops on its own or does it always come in from the LFS? Next time I buy fish I'll most definitely QT then for a few weeks and make sure they are ready for the DT.

 

[snorvich]

I read through all the stickies, some are many years old and have varying information. I felt a fresh question and fresh current answers would be the best approach.

all the fish parasite stickies were placed in this forum in 2014 and reviewed by Reef Central staff, one of whom is a marine biologist. They can be found here.

Well The QT tank is almost setup, now I'm working on getting all the livestock out.

Is ich something that just develops on its own or does it always come in from the LFS? Next time I buy fish I'll most definitely QT then for a few weeks and make sure they are ready for the DT.

The answer to that is in the stickies. And a few weeks is probably not sufficient.

 

[MorganAtlanta]

Look into chloroquine phosphate if you have a fish only tank.

 

[coral_lagoon]

A UV sterilizer is a waste of time,money,and energy. Quarantine each fish before putting them in the DT,and you will never look back..

 

[Deinonych]

A UV sterilizer is a waste of time,money,and energy. Quarantine each fish before putting them in the DT,and you will never look back..

+1, although I find a UV is useful for removing CP from the QT after treatment.

 

[snorvich]

+1, although I find a UV is useful for removing CP from the QT after treatment.

Yes, that is true. CP degrades with strong light and especially UV.

 

[mskvarenina]

It doesn't seem it's easy to purchase chloroquine phosphate

 

[snorvich]

It doesn't seem it's easy to purchase chloroquine phosphate

No its not. And you have to investigate the source to determine if you are getting a pure product.

 

[mskvarenina]

Well I know you recommended against it but I've been dosing the DT with copper since Monday evening, testing daily and adding a little to maintain a low level and I'm happy to report that there has been zero flashing today and no signs of ich on any of the fish. Could be just a coincidence but I sat for 2 hours tonight and watched everyone and for the first time since the ich and flashing started, things are calm. Nobody appears to be in distress and everyone is eating.

If I can keep this up successfully for the next 4 weeks I'll assume I've eradicated the parasite and remove the copper and start adding additional fish.

Of course the next fish will get QT'd, I just don't have the space or dollars to setup a QT big enough to house the current load of fish.

 

[mskvarenina]

3 days later still no flashing and no signs of ich. I suppose the copper is working. I'm testing daily and while the 2 test kits I'm using are hard to read (Seachem and API) but are showing a level somewhere between 0.3 & 0.5.

Here's the question. I understand the life cycle now for ich. The sticky on the forum was very detailed but what I'm unclear about is the timing. Assuming the parasite falls off the fish, goes to the substrate, incubates there for a few days and releases hundreds or thousands new parasites free swimming to find the next host. I would think that while we talk about this being a day here and a day there, in reality wouldn't this really be a continuous cycle within the tank, in other words 24/7 this cycle happening with some free swimmers looking for a host today while others are in a fish feeding and others are in the substrate?

 

[Deinonych]

You are correct that it is a continuous cycle once the parasite takes hold. This is why it is important to maintain proper therapeutic levels of medication at all times, especially at night when the free-swimming stage is released from the cysts.

BTW, if you are treating with Cupramine, I don't believe the API kit will provide accurate readings. When I treat with it, I use both the Seachem and the Salifert kits. I agree they are very difficult to read.

 

[MrTuskfish]

3 days later still no flashing and no signs of ich. I suppose the copper is working. I'm testing daily and while the 2 test kits I'm using are hard to read (Seachem and API) but are showing a level somewhere between 0.3 & 0.5.

Here's the question. I understand the life cycle now for ich. The sticky on the forum was very detailed but what I'm unclear about is the timing. Assuming the parasite falls off the fish, goes to the substrate, incubates there for a few days and releases hundreds or thousands new parasites free swimming to find the next host. I would think that while we talk about this being a day here and a day there, in reality wouldn't this really be a continuous cycle within the tank, in other words 24/7 this cycle happening with some free swimmers looking for a host today while others are in a fish feeding and others are in the substrate?

If you're using Cupramine, the API test kits don't work at all. SeaChem & Salifert are two that do. Here's the poop on Cupramine, the FAQ contain vital info. With copper, the packaging just doesn't contain enough info.