Marine Velvet Wiped Out My Tank!!

[phantom3581]

Hello, I am new to this site/forum and new to the saltwater tank world. I started my 29 gal tank about 6-7 mths ago. I started with live sand and live rock. Added two clown fish to my tank to start with and cycled it. Added some dwarf blue leg hermit crabs and a couple of turbo snails. Then put in a branded coral shrimp (mean little thing) and soon after added 2 bangaii cardinals. Finally about 4 1/2 weeks ago I added the last fish I wanted - a flame angel. Everything with my tank up until a week and a half ago were great. Normal water and filter changes, took water to LFS for frequent testing and everything was always good.

A week ago I noticed my flame angel was acting a little off - acted normal up until this point. Once I got up close, I realized she was very pale and "breathing" rapidly and was also hovering about mid-water. I called my LFS and they had me run a water sample straight down. Water tested good. LFS fish guy was a little stumped as to what it might be - he suggested to do a water change and change my filter first to see if that helped...thought maybe she got stressed out from something.

I came straight home and started a water change and changed the filter. She died about two hours later. The next morning I awoke to my clowns acting the same way only they had a visible white looking film on them. My LFS didn't open until 10am so I in turn sat and watched my two clowns pass as well because I had no clue what to do. I called as soon as they opened and spoke with the owner. He suggested that it was probably marine velvet disease and told me that I needed to come and get this medicine to put into the water. I did so and still lost my bangaii cardinals the next day along with all of my tube worms, rock worms, snails and small brown grass anemone (came on one of my rocks). The only thing left are my indestructible hermit crabs. I am not sure what the name of the medicine was that my LFS gave me (haven't talked to them again - too upset at the whole situation).

Here are my questions:
1. Are my live rocks now considered "dead" too and can they be put in a tank with fish safely or do I need to throw them out?

2. Are my hermit crabs carrying the disease on them (meaning if I would put new fish in would they get it from the hermits)?

3. How might my tank have gotten this disease and is there any way to prevent it in the future?

My husband and I are considering just starting to build the big tank that we hoped to upgrade to at a later date now instead of rebuilding my 29 gal tank. No matter what we do, I do not want to encounter this problem again!

Thanks for any help/advice on this matter in advance!
Jess

 

[b0bab0ey]

1. Are my live rocks now considered "dead" too and can they be put in a tank with fish safely or do I need to throw them out?

Since all your fish have died, whatever disease killed them is now a moot point. You need to leave your tank fallow (fishless) for 9-10 weeks, to starve out whatever did this. Fish parasites cannot survive indefinitely without a fish host to feed on. In the meantime, just add a pinch of flake food to the tank every 2-3 days to keep your rocks "live". The bacteria living inside your rocks will break down the flake and continue to live.

2. Are my hermit crabs carrying the disease on them (meaning if I would put new fish in would they get it from the hermits)?

No, the disease only survives in the rocks, sand and water column at this point. There is always a slight chance that it could inadvertently "hitchhike" on an invert, so I'd leave the crabs where they are during the fallow period. Don't forget to feed your crabs!

3. How might my tank have gotten this disease and is there any way to prevent it in the future?

Invest in a quarantine tank, and use it on each & every new fish purchase. Petco is still doing their $1/gal sale. Or if you plan on upgrading anyway, use the 29 gal as the QT. This sticky describes how to setup a QT:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2195588

 

[MrTuskfish]

What med did the no-nothing guy at the LFS sell you? This will determine if the LR is usable, dead, etc. You cannot treat anything in the DT, you need a QT/HT. I assume he suggested the clowns for cycling. this hasn't been the norm for 25+ years and is very cruel to the fish. FWIW, I think this may have brooklynella, but at this point, it doesn't matter.

Your DT needs to stay fishless to rid the tank of parasites. I would keep it that way for 10+ weeks to get any ich that could have been present, as well as the brook or velvet.

Like b0bab0ey said: you need a QT or this will just happen again. There are still a few good LFS, but they're few and far between. I've bought all my fish and most of my equipment from online dealers for years; many folks do the same. The RC sponsors, like LA, F&S, BZ; are all great. So is their guarantee. many of us went through what your are doing now. learn from it, do a lot of research on this hobby, and use a QT; then you can enjoy this life-long hobby/addiction.

 

[phantom3581]

Thank you guys for the info!!

I finally talked to my LFS and they gave me quinine sulfate powder to treat the fish/tank. When I got the med I was told to do a treatment as soon as I got home, then do a 20% water change and add another dose and repeat one more time (gave me 3 treatments and I only did 2 before everything was dead). I read a little about the med and it said to do treatments DAYS apart not back to back.....thinking maybe I poisoned what was still alive in my tank. :furious:

He still says he isn't positive it was velvet....said maybe it was ich (but there were NO spots on any of my fish). I am just beyond upset...my LFS is respectible here in my area, they have been around for a long time.

How did I get this in my tank? Did a change in my water cause it? Fish stress (my shrimp liked to try and pinch the fish...never hurt them though)?

My LFS said that my live rock should be ok, do a 50% water change and in about a week I should be able to add a damsel or something like that.?

Just don't know what to do at this point!!!

 

[Mrscribbled]

Thank you guys for the info!!

I finally talked to my LFS and they gave me quinine sulfate powder to treat the fish/tank. When I got the med I was told to do a treatment as soon as I got home, then do a 20% water change and add another dose and repeat one more time (gave me 3 treatments and I only did 2 before everything was dead). I read a little about the med and it said to do treatments DAYS apart not back to back.....thinking maybe I poisoned what was still alive in my tank. :furious:

He still says he isn't positive it was velvet....said maybe it was ich (but there were NO spots on any of my fish). I am just beyond upset...my LFS is respectible here in my area, they have been around for a long time.

How did I get this in my tank? Did a change in my water cause it? Fish stress (my shrimp liked to try and pinch the fish...never hurt them though)?

My LFS said that my live rock should be ok, do a 50% water change and in about a week I should be able to add a damsel or something like that.?

Just don't know what to do at this point!!!

Disease can only be caused by disease. Not stress, water chemistry, and such. Do not add any new livestock to your display tank for 12 weeks. In the meantime. Resaearch about quarantine and get one set up. You must quarantine anything wet for 8 weeks. Many stickies on here about it and google searches will give you months of reading.

There is no medicine on this earth I'd trust adding to a display tank other than Prozi pro. Too much can go wrong medicating an established ecosystem.

 

[Mrscribbled]

I'd also run carbon to remove the stuff you already treated your tank with.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Good advice from Mrscribbled above. There is no med for protozoan parasites (ich, velvet, brooklynella, et al) that can be used in a display tank. There are many reasons and any LFS guy should know this. QS is hard to keep in suspension and rock and substrate absorb and release most meds from the water column. making precise dosing impossible. QS, and almost all meds, will kill inverts, algae, and all the micro-life on/in your LR and substrate. This can lead to ammonia poisoning. It may also seriously damage the bio-filter bacteria.

This is all water over the dam, but a heads up for the future. Often; by the time velvet or brooklynella is diagnosed, its too late to treat them. Tank wipe-outs are common with these parasites. IMO & IME, many fish deaths from velvet or brook are blamed on ich. The way to avoid these parasites is simple: quarantine everything. A QT/HT is an absolute necessity for success in this hobby and not just a luxury item. You may be able to find all you need on Craigslist; often from someone leaving the hobby because they didn't use a QT. I'd suggest you get your own test kits; they are simple and not expensive. Testing water when fish have a problem may be necessary, but it seldom reveals anything dangerous to fish; except for ammonia testing and maybe PH. I really don't want to offend anyone; but I think you are relying way too much on your LFS. They may be nice guys, but their advice is questionable, at best. That is the case all over now; years ago, the LFS was a great source of info. Sadly, that's seldom the case now. This is a big reason why so many folks buy all of their fish and equipment online. I have a huge number of fish, all bought online, and I'll never do it any other way. While you're waiting for your DT to clean-up and probably recycle; I'd do a lot of reading. A few good books on the hobby, stickies on our forum, etc. Being able to recognize and quickly react to problems comes with research and time. Please don't let this episode ruin the hobby for you, most of have experienced something similar.

 

[slapshot]

good advice from mrscribbled above. There is no med for protozoan parasites (ich, velvet, brooklynella, et al) that can be used in a display tank. There are many reasons and any lfs guy should know this. Qs is hard to keep in suspension and rock and substrate absorb and release most meds from the water column. Making precise dosing impossible. Qs, and almost all meds, will kill inverts, algae, and all the micro-life on/in your lr and substrate. This can lead to ammonia poisoning. It may also seriously damage the bio-filter bacteria.

This is all water over the dam, but a heads up for the future. Often; by the time velvet or brooklynella is diagnosed, its too late to treat them. Tank wipe-outs are common with these parasites. Imo & ime, many fish deaths from velvet or brook are blamed on ich. The way to avoid these parasites is simple: Quarantine everything. A qt/ht is an absolute necessity for success in this hobby and not just a luxury item. You may be able to find all you need on craigslist; often from someone leaving the hobby because they didn't use a qt. I'd suggest you get your own test kits; they are simple and not expensive. Testing water when fish have a problem may be necessary, but it seldom reveals anything dangerous to fish; except for ammonia testing and maybe ph. I really don't want to offend anyone; but i think you are relying way too much on your lfs. They may be nice guys, but their advice is questionable, at best. That is the case all over now; years ago, the lfs was a great source of info. Sadly, that's seldom the case now. This is a big reason why so many folks buy all of their fish and equipment online. I have a huge number of fish, all bought online, and i'll never do it any other way. While you're waiting for your dt to clean-up and probably recycle; i'd do a lot of reading. A few good books on the hobby, stickies on our forum, etc. Being able to recognize and quickly react to problems comes with research and time. Please don't let this episode ruin the hobby for you, most of have experienced something similar.

+1000 excellent advice. Follow it and you won't run into problems again. I'm sure you have figured out the cost of a Q tank is cheap next to loosing all you fish.

 

[longranger]

Most all of us have had a tank wipe out at one point or another before we started using a QT tank for any fish added to your system. . It allows you to treat for common diseases as a preventative and geet your new fish fat and healthy before going into a DT. Many also QT all new inverts and corals in a separate QT WITHOUT TREATMENT as most treatments are lethal to inverts etc..

I know it is hard but try not to get angry or discouraged. Set up a QT and use this unexpected down time to plan and begin setting up your larger tank.

 

[phantom3581]

You guys are awesome! Thank you so much for everything!

Since my tank has been treated with that med am I understanding Mrtuskfish right....my live rock is "dead"? Should I get rid of the rock and sand and start the tank from bottoms up?

*Mrtuskfish* - You are not offending me in anyway! I am really questioning my LFS's knowledge right now after everything that has happened and with all of the info that I am learning from everyone on here and the rest of the forum I don't think I will be getting anything "live" from them again.

I am a little discouraged however not enough to quit!!! I have wanted a SW tank for a long time and once my husband and I became divers it only strengthened my desire to have a tank. This site is awesome - wish I would have known about it months ago.

 

[Mrscribbled]

You guys are awesome! Thank you so much for everything!

Since my tank has been treated with that med am I understanding Mrtuskfish right....my live rock is "dead"? Should I get rid of the rock and sand and start the tank from bottoms up?

*Mrtuskfish* - You are not offending me in anyway! I am really questioning my LFS's knowledge right now after everything that has happened and with all of the info that I am learning from everyone on here and the rest of the forum I don't think I will be getting anything "live" from them again.

I am a little discouraged however not enough to quit!!! I have wanted a SW tank for a long time and once my husband and I became divers it only strengthened my desire to have a tank. This site is awesome - wish I would have known about it months ago.

Do not throw rock out. Run large amounts of carbon and change out weekly for 4 weeks. This will remove the medication. Then restart your bio filtration with Instant ocean bio spira when the 12 weeks are up, along with one newly seasoned quarantined fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Hello, I am new to this site/forum and new to the saltwater tank world. I started my 29 gal tank about 6-7 mths ago. I started with live sand and live rock. Added two clown fish to my tank to start with and cycled it. Added some dwarf blue leg hermit crabs and a couple of turbo snails. Then put in a branded coral shrimp (mean little thing) and soon after added 2 bangaii cardinals. Finally about 4 1/2 weeks ago I added the last fish I wanted - a flame angel. Everything with my tank up until a week and a half ago were great. Normal water and filter changes, took water to LFS for frequent testing and everything was always good.

A week ago I noticed my flame angel was acting a little off - acted normal up until this point. Once I got up close, I realized she was very pale and "breathing" rapidly and was also hovering about mid-water. I called my LFS and they had me run a water sample straight down. Water tested good. LFS fish guy was a little stumped as to what it might be - he suggested to do a water change and change my filter first to see if that helped...thought maybe she got stressed out from something.

I came straight home and started a water change and changed the filter. She died about two hours later. The next morning I awoke to my clowns acting the same way only they had a visible white looking film on them. My LFS didn't open until 10am so I in turn sat and watched my two clowns pass as well because I had no clue what to do. I called as soon as they opened and spoke with the owner. He suggested that it was probably marine velvet disease and told me that I needed to come and get this medicine to put into the water. I did so and still lost my bangaii cardinals the next day along with all of my tube worms, rock worms, snails and small brown grass anemone (came on one of my rocks). The only thing left are my indestructible hermit crabs. I am not sure what the name of the medicine was that my LFS gave me (haven't talked to them again - too upset at the whole situation).

Here are my questions:
1. Are my live rocks now considered "dead" too and can they be put in a tank with fish safely or do I need to throw them out?

2. Are my hermit crabs carrying the disease on them (meaning if I would put new fish in would they get it from the hermits)?

3. How might my tank have gotten this disease and is there any way to prevent it in the future?

My husband and I are considering just starting to build the big tank that we hoped to upgrade to at a later date now instead of rebuilding my 29 gal tank. No matter what we do, I do not want to encounter this problem again!

Thanks for any help/advice on this matter in advance!
Jess

Fish losses from ich and oodinium are 100% completely preventable!

The only strategy against these is ERADICATION.

What is eradication? So that the organism does not exist in your tank. It is to set out as the unyielding objective to kill off/allow to die off, the VERY LAST organism.

And never allow it to come in again by any drop of water that could carry it.

Basically, eradication is possible because these organisms do not have an indefinite dormancy state. The are obliged to come out at some point in time, several weeks, not find a fish host in DT because none exists, or killed by drug or osmotic pressure in QT.

 

[shredmaster]

Such great info on this site! Sorry you had to go through losing your fish and part of your mind. I went through the exact same thing for 3 months. 2 different LFS had no idea and suggested a cleaner shrimp and garlic...wrong. After a lot of reading and visiting here, I learned it had to be a parasite. I have a 75 gallon reef tank and lost all but my watchman goby and yellow tang (that's odd I know.) Glad I wasn't able to sell my 28 nano cube, as that is my QT now. My 75 gallon has been fallow since 7/4 and I was going to go 8 weeks, but now I think I will go 10 just to make sure. I dose the QT with Cupramine and they are doing great. I will always QT everything no matter what, and buy online.
Steve