Marketable species
- Thread starter Noof
- Start date
clownfish75
New member
things are a bit different in OZ, a peppermint is worth at least $15 in a shop. and you cant sell a clarck for love or money. Ocellaris, percs and thats about where it stops, maybe frenatus.
Edaiz do you know why orchids were a slow seller?
Christian
Edaiz do you know why orchids were a slow seller?
Christian
mwp
In Memoriam
Oama, with my already crowded broodstock tanks and my Victorian Cichlid SSP interests, you're NEVER going to see a hybrid in my tanks (well, except if my S. stellatus and S. splendidus spawn on the same night and I don't catch it and let the spawn go.) There's no placed for an Indigo dottyback in any of my tanks!
My $90 was better spent on a new pair of TR Black OC's with perfect bars that had already paired up that are happily swimming around in my seahorse/mandarin tank.
All I can say is the Indigos more than rub me the wrong way, but I've already expounded on that in the earlier thread. Side by side with Fridmanis, heck ROYAL GRAMMAS, they more than fall short. They're pretty ugly in person, at least the 4 I've seen.
There are SO MANY better looking actual species that deserve our attention as captive breeders. I'd can think of MANY better deserving efforts of ORA's time than to produce Indigos and I'm pretty sure they'd have been just as profitable in the long run. Granted, you can't argue with the publicity a hybrid like this can generate for a company...that's something pretty hard to buy...but only time will tell if it's of any real benefit.
Again, just my $0.02, and I'm definitely repeating much of my same sentiments from the earlier post, so I'll try to keep it to myself this time around - TRY being one of those "flexible" terms.
If Peps fetch $15 each on the flipside, Neon Gobies and maybe Goldlines would be sure fire fish I bet!
Matt
My $90 was better spent on a new pair of TR Black OC's with perfect bars that had already paired up that are happily swimming around in my seahorse/mandarin tank.
All I can say is the Indigos more than rub me the wrong way, but I've already expounded on that in the earlier thread. Side by side with Fridmanis, heck ROYAL GRAMMAS, they more than fall short. They're pretty ugly in person, at least the 4 I've seen.
There are SO MANY better looking actual species that deserve our attention as captive breeders. I'd can think of MANY better deserving efforts of ORA's time than to produce Indigos and I'm pretty sure they'd have been just as profitable in the long run. Granted, you can't argue with the publicity a hybrid like this can generate for a company...that's something pretty hard to buy...but only time will tell if it's of any real benefit.
Again, just my $0.02, and I'm definitely repeating much of my same sentiments from the earlier post, so I'll try to keep it to myself this time around - TRY being one of those "flexible" terms.
If Peps fetch $15 each on the flipside, Neon Gobies and maybe Goldlines would be sure fire fish I bet!
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
Christian, I bet I can answer this one - you need the staples such as Ocellaris in order to get your foot in the door at enough places that you can move a batch here and there of Dottybacks. Let's put it this way, I was at the LFS today where I picked up my pair of Black OC's. There was the pair, and the loner in another tank (the pair had gotten aggressive with the odd man out, shop owner moved it). It's a small but great shop for the Chicago area.
Other than the 3 black OC's in stock, here's the rundown from memory, so don't quote me. 1 or 2 Tomatos. 1 or 2 Maroons. At least a DOZEN Occelaris. We were talking bout fish species and why OC's are probably the best clownfish to breed...at first he didn't agree. All I had to do was point to his tanks and say "Well, how many occelaris do you have on hand right now, and WHY?"
At any given moment, the closest LFS, and one of the higher end ones in the area, will have a small handful of dottyback species. Typical stocking levels? ONE OR TWO. How many occelaris are running around that same shop? I think they buy them 25 or more at a shot.
Before I went out to pick up the Black OC pair, I called around to see what was on hand. The ONLY species that every shop in the area carried? Occelaris. Next most prevelent? Black Saddles (must be around right now). After that? Well, when I mentioned "rare clowns" (thinking blue stripes, allardii, blackfoots) the #1 response? The shops either HAVE, or recently had and are getting more, "Snowflake" or "Picasso" clowns..yeah, those ones retailing at $500-$700 a pair! The guppification of Occelaris clowns...another personally revolting concept but I CAN appreciate the guppy (to be fair, they were the first fish I ever breed followed by Sailfin Mollies, but even then, at only 6 years old, I opted to go with the WILD FORMS of the species!)
Case closed in my book, I totally get it. Not that I want to breed regular Occelaris now...Percs are a tough sell compared to OC's, especially since they can take a LOOONG time to fully color up.
The Black OC pair? Well, they're just so darn cute, and apparently the going wholesale rate at one area supplier is $20 a shot tank raised. I'll still gladly part with or move the pair if/when the latz show up!
FWIW,
Matt
ediaz
Active member
Orchids are not a slow seller, the thing is that if you don't have the other species they won't buy them from you, they will buy the from ORA and C-quest where they can get not all but more species, even if they don't have them available or enough they still wont buy them just because of their relationship with the earlier mentioned, the only way to get them to buy from you is to compete with such places, it can be done and you can push them but it will be difficult to have just that specie or any other that comands a high price as your sole income.
And as you thread says you are looking for a one specie that sells high to take advantage of it, with one is not gonna happen, try broadening your stocks.
even with yellow tangs and angels in order to be successful with it you will need to find a protocol that will allow you to raise the fish a the lowest cost possible to compete with wild caught. If the price of a yellow tang TR will be around 80-90 dollars you will not sell them as long as wild caught is available.Same case with the mandarins, you will say oh but they are TR eating prepared foods, well people like us care about that, and we are a small percentage, the regular costumer and most wholesalers don't, I have a wholesaler very close that gets orchids for 3.50 each do you think he is gonna buy mine for 8-10?
I stopped raising yellow clown gobies, have about 400 left, the current collector price is 65 cents plus shiping it lands at about 1.20 each, wholesalers won't give me more than $2 for them and it does not make sense to raise them.Even when TR eats all foods, has no disease and the WC they get they claim they have 35% losses upon arrival.
Ed
And as you thread says you are looking for a one specie that sells high to take advantage of it, with one is not gonna happen, try broadening your stocks.
even with yellow tangs and angels in order to be successful with it you will need to find a protocol that will allow you to raise the fish a the lowest cost possible to compete with wild caught. If the price of a yellow tang TR will be around 80-90 dollars you will not sell them as long as wild caught is available.Same case with the mandarins, you will say oh but they are TR eating prepared foods, well people like us care about that, and we are a small percentage, the regular costumer and most wholesalers don't, I have a wholesaler very close that gets orchids for 3.50 each do you think he is gonna buy mine for 8-10?
I stopped raising yellow clown gobies, have about 400 left, the current collector price is 65 cents plus shiping it lands at about 1.20 each, wholesalers won't give me more than $2 for them and it does not make sense to raise them.Even when TR eats all foods, has no disease and the WC they get they claim they have 35% losses upon arrival.
Ed
Last edited:
FishGuttz
New member
I think this is a bigger issue than just finding an appropriate fish to make someone a profit. Congress needs to know about your ability to raise these creatures and your inability to compete with wild caught animals. It would be a shame for you, ediaz and other breeders, to discontinue production because you can't compete with WC. I'd be happy to draft a letter, although someone else would probably know lots more about the subject.
FishGuttz
New member
I think this is a bigger issue than just finding an appropriate fish to make someone a profit. Congress needs to know about your ability to raise these creatures and your inability to compete with wild caught animals. It would be a shame for you, ediaz and other breeders, to discontinue production because you can't compete with WC. I'd be happy to draft a letter, although someone else would probably know lots more about the subject.
mwp
In Memoriam
Here's a case in point - 40 spawns, not a single mandarin raised yet. If I was doing this as a business, um, I'd probably be "down and out". How many of you are going to want TR Mandarins at oh, lets say $90 each retail?
The one company I could see with actually pulling that off would be Ocean Rider...afterall look at the price discrepency between TR and WC Seahorses! Guess I already know who I should try to sell my first mandarins to...
Matt
The one company I could see with actually pulling that off would be Ocean Rider...afterall look at the price discrepency between TR and WC Seahorses! Guess I already know who I should try to sell my first mandarins to...
Matt
TomRep
New member
FishGuttz- I completely agree with you that the government should look into us small breeders and see what we are doing, but honestly, it's probably a waste of time. I think it's pathetic how they fund all these schools and such for this matter and all the schools do in return is "reinvent the wheel". There was a post on here a couple weeks ago how the government gave a pile of money to someone for research and all they did (that we know of) is breed Clownfish. I think Ed or Matt or most anyone on this page that is as into this part of the hobby as those two guys are should get all the money that the schools are getting, andthen some! But, unfortunatly, I think it would be hard to get that kind of funding. Just my opinion.
Tom
ps.- I'm not telling you in any way that it will NEVER happen, I'm just saying I think it will be extremely tough.
Tom
ps.- I'm not telling you in any way that it will NEVER happen, I'm just saying I think it will be extremely tough.
mwp
In Memoriam
:lolspin: You have quite the sense of humor Ed. I have some $90 Onxy Percs at 1/4" to sell ya, so break out that checkbook!!! I have some insider info I'm not allowed to "directly share" on the mandarin front - I'm going to crack them, probably early 2007 at this point. Hatching is STILL problematic!
Matt
I have some insider info I'm not allowed to "directly share" on the mandarin front - I'm going to crack them, probably early 2007 at this point. Hatching is STILL problematic!Matt
clownfish75
New member
thansk for the tips ediaz, the situation is rather different here in OZ as there is no ORA or others, but i understand what you mean, you need 20 ocellaris to sell 5 orchids.
Christian
Christian
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8464965#post8464965 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mwp
:lolspin: You have quite the sense of humor Ed. I have some $90 Onxy Percs at 1/4" to sell ya, so break out that checkbook!!!
Matt
Matt, you know we love you, but stop tantalizing us with this insider info that you cannot share. If you can't share it, don't tell me you got it!:eek2:
mwp
In Memoriam
Just an update - Indigo Dottybacks have just dropped in price from $89 to $59 at LA - http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/ItemDisplay.cfm?ddid=11952&siteid=20
Told ya so...not all that great a fish in my book! STICK WITH TRUE SPECIES!
Matt
Told ya so...not all that great a fish in my book! STICK WITH TRUE SPECIES!
Matt
AquaticFins
Premium Member
While not a breeder, I'd like to perhaps make a few comments on this thread from the retailer's perspective.
First off - simply an echo of the common consensus that A. ocellaris is our bread and butter. I sell very close to twice as many Ocellaris as all other clownfish varieties combined, and I tend average somewhere between eight and a dozen species, roughly twenty to twenty five SKU's of clownfish in total, in stock at any given time. We do purchase some wild clownfish - primarily full-adult mated pairs, though we also purchase a fair number of wild "onyx" Percula clowns.
Of the non-Ocellaris species, Perculas are far and away the best-selling for us. Clarkii, Bicinctus, and Polymnus are next, with the single-band species and maroons bringing up the rear. Small Tomato and Rubrocinctus sell fairly well, but only when small enough to still retain their extremely bright red-orange colour.
We've seen maroons take a very sharp decline in popularity over the past two years. They sell fairly well when they're large - four inches plus - to customers with predatory fish-only aquariums, but they sit in our tanks aside from that.
Moving on from clownfish, there are three other major groups of fish I'd love to see more of: Jawfish, Cardinalfish, and Gobies.
Of the jawfish, we're able to fill roughly half our demand for Dusky (Opistognathus whitehurstii) and about a fifth of our demand for Yellow-head/Pearly jawfish with locally captive-bred fish. Occasionally we'll have a breeder bring in a couple of Bali Tiger (undescribed as far as I know, sorry for the lack of a proper name), but those are the only two species out of the half-dozen or so varieties we try to stock that I can get any quantity of captive-raised. Yellowhead/Pearly jawfish are the species that are needed in quantity. Not Ocellaris quantity, no, but I sell roughly one yellowhead jawfish for every four ocellaris clowns - on par with A. percula, and far more than any of the other clowns. They've been steadily getting more and more expensive of late, too - average wholesale for me is now US$8-12 a fish, up from US$5-6 just a couple of years ago. If you can figure out how to make $10-15 a fish profitable, they'll be a mainstream seller. Opistognathus rosenblatti isn't going to be mainstrem, but wholesale has been creeping up from the US$38-40 they were a few years ago...$52-60 is about average for that species now, and that seems like it could be worth some investigation to my non-breeder mind.
Of the cardinals, S. nematoptera is pretty readily available cultured and isn't as popular as it used to be anyway. The huge demand for P. kauderni isn't going anywhere - we have several local breeders working with them and purchase them from ORA whenever they have them available...and we still can't meet demand for them. They're just not worth importing these days (of the final six batches of wild Kaudern's we brought in, over 80% died within the first three days), so we're stuck with whatever we can find captive-bred. Apogon leptocanthus is becoming quite popular - we don't have a captive source for it yet. There are at least half a dozen different cardinalfish species that come in under the trade names of "dwarf" or "Japanese" cardinalfish that seem to be several things - ideal ultra-peaceful reef fish, wildly popular, and next to impossible to identify. There's certainly potential there.
With the flourishing popularity of nano-reef tanks, I think the gobies might perhaps be among the most interesting prospects for captive-breeding. There are so many unique little fish that are going to be lost to the trade as CITIES and other import/export restrictions grow. Too many of the dwarf, nano, and shrimp gobies we bring in sell before we can even attach a scientific name to their tag. Local enthusiast breeders are probably the only hope of keeping some of these fish in the trade, long-term.
But, this thread is about marketablitity...and there are some species that are clearly marketable. The obvious one is Gobisoma oceanops, the every-day cleaner goby, though all the species in the oceanops-complex are certainly popular. The smaller shrimp gobies - Amblyeleotris randalli, A. fasciata, A. guttata, A. wheeleri, and Stonogobiops nematodes are the most popular for us. The Yellow Watchman Goby isn't as popular as it used to be, but it's a good staple goby. Amblygobius hectori and rainfordi are both quite popular. Some of the sleeper/sand-sifting gobies sell in massive quantities, and I've never seen/heard of anyone even making an atttempt at raising them. Valenciennea puellaris, strigata, and wardii are the most popular three, with the first outselling the other two at least six to one.
If there's one commercially-raised group of fish I've never fully understood, it's the dottybacks. Some sell in okay numbers, but they're just not that popular a group of fish. If you've got them, I'll certainly buy them...but I'm going to be calling you about more Ocellaris, more Perculas...not orchid dottybacks. And absolutely no hybrids. I certainly have to make decisions that make the ethics-centre twitch all the time, but as MWP has stated a few times, why waste the time and facilities when there are other species that you could be breeding?
Speaking as a retailer, I'm not going to buy them.
First off - simply an echo of the common consensus that A. ocellaris is our bread and butter. I sell very close to twice as many Ocellaris as all other clownfish varieties combined, and I tend average somewhere between eight and a dozen species, roughly twenty to twenty five SKU's of clownfish in total, in stock at any given time. We do purchase some wild clownfish - primarily full-adult mated pairs, though we also purchase a fair number of wild "onyx" Percula clowns.
Of the non-Ocellaris species, Perculas are far and away the best-selling for us. Clarkii, Bicinctus, and Polymnus are next, with the single-band species and maroons bringing up the rear. Small Tomato and Rubrocinctus sell fairly well, but only when small enough to still retain their extremely bright red-orange colour.
We've seen maroons take a very sharp decline in popularity over the past two years. They sell fairly well when they're large - four inches plus - to customers with predatory fish-only aquariums, but they sit in our tanks aside from that.
Moving on from clownfish, there are three other major groups of fish I'd love to see more of: Jawfish, Cardinalfish, and Gobies.
Of the jawfish, we're able to fill roughly half our demand for Dusky (Opistognathus whitehurstii) and about a fifth of our demand for Yellow-head/Pearly jawfish with locally captive-bred fish. Occasionally we'll have a breeder bring in a couple of Bali Tiger (undescribed as far as I know, sorry for the lack of a proper name), but those are the only two species out of the half-dozen or so varieties we try to stock that I can get any quantity of captive-raised. Yellowhead/Pearly jawfish are the species that are needed in quantity. Not Ocellaris quantity, no, but I sell roughly one yellowhead jawfish for every four ocellaris clowns - on par with A. percula, and far more than any of the other clowns. They've been steadily getting more and more expensive of late, too - average wholesale for me is now US$8-12 a fish, up from US$5-6 just a couple of years ago. If you can figure out how to make $10-15 a fish profitable, they'll be a mainstream seller. Opistognathus rosenblatti isn't going to be mainstrem, but wholesale has been creeping up from the US$38-40 they were a few years ago...$52-60 is about average for that species now, and that seems like it could be worth some investigation to my non-breeder mind.
Of the cardinals, S. nematoptera is pretty readily available cultured and isn't as popular as it used to be anyway. The huge demand for P. kauderni isn't going anywhere - we have several local breeders working with them and purchase them from ORA whenever they have them available...and we still can't meet demand for them. They're just not worth importing these days (of the final six batches of wild Kaudern's we brought in, over 80% died within the first three days), so we're stuck with whatever we can find captive-bred. Apogon leptocanthus is becoming quite popular - we don't have a captive source for it yet. There are at least half a dozen different cardinalfish species that come in under the trade names of "dwarf" or "Japanese" cardinalfish that seem to be several things - ideal ultra-peaceful reef fish, wildly popular, and next to impossible to identify. There's certainly potential there.
With the flourishing popularity of nano-reef tanks, I think the gobies might perhaps be among the most interesting prospects for captive-breeding. There are so many unique little fish that are going to be lost to the trade as CITIES and other import/export restrictions grow. Too many of the dwarf, nano, and shrimp gobies we bring in sell before we can even attach a scientific name to their tag. Local enthusiast breeders are probably the only hope of keeping some of these fish in the trade, long-term.
But, this thread is about marketablitity...and there are some species that are clearly marketable. The obvious one is Gobisoma oceanops, the every-day cleaner goby, though all the species in the oceanops-complex are certainly popular. The smaller shrimp gobies - Amblyeleotris randalli, A. fasciata, A. guttata, A. wheeleri, and Stonogobiops nematodes are the most popular for us. The Yellow Watchman Goby isn't as popular as it used to be, but it's a good staple goby. Amblygobius hectori and rainfordi are both quite popular. Some of the sleeper/sand-sifting gobies sell in massive quantities, and I've never seen/heard of anyone even making an atttempt at raising them. Valenciennea puellaris, strigata, and wardii are the most popular three, with the first outselling the other two at least six to one.
If there's one commercially-raised group of fish I've never fully understood, it's the dottybacks. Some sell in okay numbers, but they're just not that popular a group of fish. If you've got them, I'll certainly buy them...but I'm going to be calling you about more Ocellaris, more Perculas...not orchid dottybacks. And absolutely no hybrids. I certainly have to make decisions that make the ethics-centre twitch all the time, but as MWP has stated a few times, why waste the time and facilities when there are other species that you could be breeding?
Speaking as a retailer, I'm not going to buy them.
FishGuttz
New member
Fins,
Thanks for that incredibly useful and proprietary information. I think you'll be the new link for people asking the "how much for my fish?" question. I am considering an oceanops breeding system as we speak. Mostly because they are supposed to be easy to breed, but it's also nice to know I can sell the little guys!
do you think redhead gobies would sell as well as the neons?
Thanks for that incredibly useful and proprietary information. I think you'll be the new link for people asking the "how much for my fish?" question. I am considering an oceanops breeding system as we speak. Mostly because they are supposed to be easy to breed, but it's also nice to know I can sell the little guys!
do you think redhead gobies would sell as well as the neons?
Similar threads
