maybe ich.....velvet?

[smaug1]

I know this horse has been beat to death. I have a small 20 gal fowlr with a cherub angel,royal gramma,2 purple firefish,a mantis shrimp and a med size cuc. All the fish have been in there for less then 2 months.2 wks ago I saw the tiniest dust like particles on my cherub and he exhibited slight flashing. Being a freshwater guy,I figure he would fight it off and a week later with no meds it went away, ( I know). Earley this week he started flashing a few days later the gramma was flashing too. The firefish seem fine for now. I just set up a ht tank and after a short fw dip added them all too it. It has a hob filter with carbon and floss for media atm. I have added no meds yet. The cherub and gramma do exhibit slightly dull color with possibly an increase in slime. The cherub will grab food but spits it out even when soaked in garlic. The gramma has very little appetite. The ff eat fine.I have read that copper will kill the angel,I don't have room for another ht tank.help me please.

 

[smaug1]

Gee whiz fellas! Here I have only been in the sw hobby for 3 months and I already have an issue that has stumped so many people.

 

[smaug1]

Really? No help at all??

 

[sgrmagnolia]

Do you have any pictures of the spots?

 

[smaug1]

No spots. Just flashing,lack of appetite,and rapid breathing with the angel. The spots the angel showed weeks ago were more fine dusty specks then ich I have seen in pictures on marine fish.

 

[sgrmagnolia]

It's hard to say without seeing them what they may actually have. If you think it is ich you could try hyposalinity to spare the angel.

 

[smaug1]

All 4 of my fish (cherub angel,royal gramma and 2 firefish) are in a hosp tank right now and have been ther since sat morning. I did this because the angel and the gramma were flasing for a few day before hand. The angel actually showed fine dusty spots 2 wks ago but it went away in 2 days,he had mild flashing then as well. I did nothing to treat then as it happened so fast and went away. Anyway,within a few hours of putting them in ht,all flashing went away but they still had lack of appetite (gramma and angel) the ff were fine. 24 hrs after adding them to ht I dosed with general cure by api,still low appetite so tried garlic laced oceannutrition brine shrimp plus,they liked it. Today ,over 36 hrs later,still no flashing and good appetite with brine shrimp and garlic,very good really. They all look very good and active,the angel is hyper naturally so I can't judge any fast breathing but the other 3 look great. I am keeping the ht at 81deg,1.023 , and a natural 8.3 ph. The only diff between the ht and mt is the ph in the mt is 8.0. I'm having difficulty believing sucha fast turn around in healthand behaviour in just that quick of time. Anybody have similar experiances or ideas on what I'm dealing with here?

 

[PJtree23]

sounds like they need to be treated with copper in a separate QT tank for at least 4 weeks and the DT needs to run fallow for at least 8 weeks

 

[MrTuskfish]

The term "dust' always makes me think velvet. if you look at the fish head on, this is often the best way to see the velvety appearance of that parasite. I know dwarf angels are sensitive to copper; but you have a real dilemma. IMO & IME: only copper will eliminate velvet. I don't think API General Cure will do anything, except give you false hope that delays real treatment.Some folks advocate hypo, but I don't think it works with velvet. As with most parasites, there can be periods of improvement; followed by the re-emergence of a tremendous number of the parasites. velvet is quick acting and deadly. Again, strictly my opinion: I'd treat with copper, I think there is better than a 50/50 chance your Cherub will handle the treatment. I personally think the worry with copper and angels is over-blown; but that is just my experience and opinion. Flame Angels are very copper-sensetive, though. If you use Cupramine at an absolute maximum of 50ppm, I think you can cure this stuff. Monitor closely with a SeaChem copper test kit and keep the QT topped off---to prevent copper increases. Most fish can handle higher levels of copper, but it's almost always effective at 50ppm. Of course, all this drivel of mine assumes the fish do have velvet. Google velvet and images and decide. If you're convinced that you are dealing with velvet; start treatment ASAP. this stuff is very fast-spreading and deadly. There is a chance you're going to lose a (some) fish; but I don't know a better route to take. Here's some good info on velvet:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=83. And:http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm

 

[smaug1]

My gramma was a living floater this morning,he darted to the bottom when I turned the lights on but I could see he was a gonner soon so I euthed him. The other 3 looked ok from what I could tell. On way home I stopped and got a bottle of coppersafe ( didn't have cupramine) and an api test kit (didn't have better). Dosed suggested dosing but only got .25 ppm when it was sposed to be 1.5 to 2 ppm. Did another dose an hour later and got .50. Is coppersafe affective at the same levels as cupramine? I did remove all carbon and there are only a few brown glass jars for hidy holes in this tank. The temp is kept at 81 deg with a 1.023 sal and a ph of 8.3. In my research I see another issue ,I have a std dose of prime in there because the tank is not cycled and hass ammonia showing of .5. I just did a wc yesterday of 50%. Am I to understand that prime can cause big problems with copper? I read that just on this forum and can really find it nowhere else with simple googling.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Cupramine and ammonia neutralizers (prime) are deadly when mixed. I assume that's true for all copper. I'd call tech support for the brand of copper you have and ask. But first, I'd run as much carbon as possible to remove the copper. Or, do a 100% WC. Without a cycled tank ready, WCs are really your only option for managing ammonia.One of the ''Miracle-Gro'' bacteria starters might work, but I sure haven't heard many positive things about them.

 

[smaug1]

Why isn't that deadly mix more common knowledge I wonder. There is nothing on mardels site about that. What is different about coppersafe from cupramine I wonder as well? Though I do thank you for your help tusker,I was truly hoping for more responses about this subject. I do see a lot of activity on this forum for swaps and frag shows but don't see a lot of activity when someone really needs advice such as this. A shame really.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Why isn't that deadly mix more common knowledge I wonder. There is nothing on mardels site about that. What is different about coppersafe from cupramine I wonder as well? Though I do thank you for your help tusker,I was truly hoping for more responses about this subject. I do see a lot of activity on this forum for swaps and frag shows but don't see a lot of activity when someone really needs advice such as this. A shame really.

Here's an excellent sticky by sk8r; from the top of the disease forum.( http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1997077). SeaChem, maker of Cupramine also has some good Q&A at their web site. This hobby does involve a lot or trial & error, research, etc. BTW, news of this combination (copper/prime) is fairly new, at least to me. Forums like this, as well as anything else you can read, will help with the hobby. Company tech support is also an under-used (IMO) for us too. If a company doesn't have good tech support, I don't buy their stuff. BTW; much info on fish health, etc., is someone's opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. There is a lot of purely anecdotal information too. Some of it may prove correct, some won't. You just have to do a lot of research and make decisions on what you've learned. This hobby/addiction doesn't have a big set of rules and things are always changing----generally for the better.

 

[smaug1]

I do notice that states if you overdose with prime. Truly not trying to be argumentative but that is how I have understood this interaction to be troublesome,with overdosing of dechlor. As it stands now with my ht,I am keeping the cu level at a bit more then .5 with coppersafe and only the recomended dose of prime. My cycle has kicked in yesterday so I should no longer need the prime. The fish look well and as long as I am feeding garlic laced ocean nutr brine shrimp plus,they eat well too. Thank you for your help Mr Tuskfish.