Mdf
- Thread starter JTL
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BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Is this for an acrylic or a glass tank?
JTL
New member
Bean, it is glass. The stand is really more of a permanent cabinet that sits between two 7x7 posts in my living room. It is actually a room divider. I could park my car on the the cabinet. The middle portion is supported by a 2x2 that spans the width of only 24" the exterior is skimmed with 3/4 plywood and granite. My understanding is that the majority of the weight is on the corners. The length is only 44" and like I said the center of that is a 2x2 so the free span of 22" that is very well supported on the corners and edges. It is not a big deal to put plywood on the top if that makes more sense.
On an unrelated topic. The tank will be 44x24x22 rimless. I am trying to decide on the overflow. I can do a coast to coast on the 24" side, but remember I have a 7x7 post in the middle
of each short side so I have 8.5" on the exterior on each side of the post. The 44" sides are fully visible, . The other side is against a wall, post included and that is where I want to locate the overflow. I think you or someone suggested drilling holes and having a low profile overflow in the tank and a larger box with bulkheads on the exterior. Also didn't you suggest cutting the glass lower on tank and let the water flow into an exterior box? What do you think?
John
On an unrelated topic. The tank will be 44x24x22 rimless. I am trying to decide on the overflow. I can do a coast to coast on the 24" side, but remember I have a 7x7 post in the middle
of each short side so I have 8.5" on the exterior on each side of the post. The 44" sides are fully visible, . The other side is against a wall, post included and that is where I want to locate the overflow. I think you or someone suggested drilling holes and having a low profile overflow in the tank and a larger box with bulkheads on the exterior. Also didn't you suggest cutting the glass lower on tank and let the water flow into an exterior box? What do you think?
John
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insane
Member
I would suggest doubling up on the thickness of the top if using MDF and using wood glue to completely cover both of the surfaces being joined and then screwing them together with recessed wood screws as well as doing the bracing underneath that is glued and screwed to your top. I am assuming you are using 3/4" MDF. You can also get 1" thick MDF but it generally has to be special ordered as it is not commonly used in construction. And like others state, seal, seal, seal. Another possibility is to use square steel stock as your bracing. It would be lower profile than wood and much stronger. A wooden 2x2 is very weak. If I had to use wood as a brace and didn't want it sticking down far, use a 2x4 or 2x6 on its side. They will all bow too but the wider it is the longer it will take to bow.
JTL
New member
The 2x2 is 52 years old and still straight as an arrow. I can't hardly put screws in it with my impact driver, I think it is petrified. I am going with plywood to be safe. Thanks for the comments.
John
Insane, I am doing a DIY rimless. Still trying to decide on the overflow and whether to go closed loop. What are you doing?
John
Insane, I am doing a DIY rimless. Still trying to decide on the overflow and whether to go closed loop. What are you doing?
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insane
Member
I am doing a 3/8" glass 36"x36"x24" 135g rimless with a 6"tall x6"deep x 36"wide coast to coast overflow. I won't be having fish so I don't plan on having teeth on the overflow. No big deal to add teeth if I change my mind on the fish thing. It will have one durso standpipe, one full siphon standpipe and one emergency overflow standpipe all centered and spaced 4" apart using 1" schedule 80 bulkheads with 1 1/2" standpipes. Two 3/4" returns, one at each corner inside the overflow with 3/4" loc-line split to have two 1/2 loc-lines on each side with both sizes of flare nozzles.
This will have a flow rate of 1,000gph for an all SPS reef. In addition I will have one vortech20 to do a gyre wave. The kind of wave that looks like it is going to just come out of the tank on all 4 sides. With what those vortechs can do you don't need plumbing or even wires in a tank and you can blow the water out if you wanted to.
Now the sump/refugium I have designed will be very special as I have yet to see anyone have one like the one I have drawn up that can handle 1,000gph going over a refugium without ripping it apart, hold a good sized skimmer, heater and additional eqiupment. The whole thing is only 30"x24"x18" to fit under the rimless plus leave room for other equipment. Am doing a 250w 6,500k MH on the fuge. It will cost less than $200.00 to build. The tank is under $600.00. GC wanted close to $1,000.00 for the same tank with a regular overflow, only one drain bulkhead and only one return bulkhead.
You can do a center overflow which is what I originally thought of doing, but in doing that the thickness of the bottom glass has to be greatly increased to handle the stress of being drilled in the middle plus holding the weight. A 6"x6" center overflow would not hold the standpipes I am going to use. You could do a durso and an emergency plus your return if you don't need the high flow. If you don't have the room behind a tank for the plumbing you can just take the overflow all the way down to the bottom of the tank and have the bulkheads in the bottom instead of it just going across the top but you lose valuable real estate in doing so. That would be better done on the end of a tank.
Mine will basically be a cube without the extra 12" on top so the overflow is 36" wide wherever I put it. I am mainly doing it so wide because I want the gyre wave. They are so cool. The heights of the elbows in the overflow will have to be tweaked a bit so I don't lose the siphon but the 3rd standpipe will make up the difference while the other two adjust....In theory. LOL This is my firs tank build but I have a few things on my side that give me a big edge.
Will also have 5 way lighting on the reef to simulate sunrise to sunset. No fancy controller, just lots-o'-timers. Blue LEDs, 192w PC actinics, 192w PC 10k daylights, 800w 20k MH. MH's will be seperately controlled. And as mntioned before the 250w 6,500k MH on the fuge on a reverse cycle from the reef MH.
And as of today, I am going to make the top rim of the tank with a slightly beveled polished edge. All edges were going to be polished anyways. Now I just want a cool top edge. Like an Elos (thanks uncleof6)
but just slightly more beveled to make it stand out more.Frank
P.S. That would be white pine 2x2's. Predrill your screw holes to keep from snapping off your screws.
JTL
New member
Insane, is the overflow similar to the "Bean" model? If I understand there will be 2 adustable returns coming out of and on either side of the overflow. Is that correct? I am seriously considering the Vortech, but I thought I may need the 40. The closed loop system while nice and clean is just to limiting. I am thinking about doing LED's (DIY of course). Thanks for sharing the info.
John
John
dialicious
New member
I love building things out of MDF. Amazing for props and great for painted furniture (bookcases, bedframes...)
But I'd never use it around water.
While rebuilding the kitchen in my loft, I used 3/4" sheets to skin the elevated deck because I had them on hand from another project. I sealed all the sheets with a few oil based coats - with the eventual plan of laying hardwood over the surface.
In the few weeks of moderate kitchen use on a sealed surface there were swollen areas all over the MDF. A little splash of water here - a plumbing error there.... and it was ruined.
We decided to rip it all out and replace it with ply.
Not worth the risk.
But I'd never use it around water.
While rebuilding the kitchen in my loft, I used 3/4" sheets to skin the elevated deck because I had them on hand from another project. I sealed all the sheets with a few oil based coats - with the eventual plan of laying hardwood over the surface.
In the few weeks of moderate kitchen use on a sealed surface there were swollen areas all over the MDF. A little splash of water here - a plumbing error there.... and it was ruined.
We decided to rip it all out and replace it with ply.
Not worth the risk.
insane
Member
Yeppers. What I like about that setup is that it is safe and the flow is adjustable. It will work anywhere from high to low flow depending on how you set the gate valves. Don't use ball valves.
Beananimals
Each 3/4" return will have a 3/4" loc-line "Y" fitting that reduces each side to 1/2" Loc-line. Of the two 1/2" loc-lines, one will be short as to shoot down and at the reef at the back corner while the other will be extended 1/3 to 1/2 way across the top of the side and blow back towards the reef. Both rear corners will have identical loc-line setups to give me four 1/2"outputs with flare nozzles. Loc-line is a much cleaner look for a rimless. I don't want anything touching the rim of the tank. I am kind of considering having 3/4" bulkheads in the bottom of the overflow as well so that one loc-line of the pair will be under the overflow instead of both coming out of the overflow. Havn't made the final decision yet. It would make for a cleaner look just having one come out of the overflow from on top at each side and one underneath.
I am going to do the V40 as well. I am planning for that one because of the adjustability of it. If I decide to do a bigger tank it can handle it.
I won't get into DIY LEDs. I prefer just buying strips of them prewired that come with a power supply. I just mount them in effective ways from above and behind the reef to shine down the face of the reef instead of them pointed directly onto the reef from the front. That way it catches the entire face of the and what is on it. With wiring your own LED's you have to take into account the wires being exposed to the saltwater, the mounting and the ability to aim the individual diodes. That is a lot of wires, resistors and soldering if done right. I already do too much soldering in my job and the time it would take isn't worth it to me. I have installed a lot of LED tubes, spot lights, strobelights, etc. in nightclubs and the placement and aiming of them is much more important than the number of them you have. The more effectively you use them, the less you have to use. It just looks like more than it actually is.
If you want to go half and half with DIY LED's you can buy the 12volt premade weatherproof LED sticks used on cars and use a 12 volt power supply(wall wart) that most people usually have laying around from old electronics or buy them at radio shack. Then you don't have to worry about the salt and corrosion.
What kind of lighting/canopy will you be doing? I plan on building a canopy down from the ceiling with fans ducting the heat from the lights up into the attic and all wiring for the lights running through the attic into a closet with ventilation that will hold the ballasts. I will probably leave a 12" or so gap between the canopy and the rim of the tank. Big enough to fit my head and shoulders through. The tank will sit between two rooms in the center of the floor with a walkway on each side of the tank. RO line, sewer drain and electric all coming up through the floor under the stand from the basement. The stand will be made of double walled 3/4" MDF and laminated with formica. The canopy will be built with a lightweight frame and skinned with 1/4" exterior grade underlayment. The lights will be recessed about a foot up from the bottom of the canopy to control spillage of light into the room. I will probably make it adjustable so the lights can be raised or lowered while the canopy remains fixed.
I love designing and building things. As for those 2x2's. I would never use one anywhere in the structural support of anything substantionaly heavy. For use in a canopy or as a nailer to skin a stand yes. I do a lot of structural carpentry in building nightclubs and other things. I hang tens of thousands of pounds of of heavy sound and lighting equipment from vibrating ceilings that has to stay there for a very long time. If something fell it could kill a person. It is better to overbuild something than to take a chance and underdo it to save a dollar now. MDF is more rigid than plywood too. Too much money goes into a reef to have it all on the floor because of a little piece of wood.
insane
Member
Never use MDF as a subfloor. That is what they used to do in mobile homes and you eventually fall through it in moist enviorments. OSB (Oriented Strand Board) aka wafer board, is used for flooring and exterior walls in modern construction to save money because it is cheaper than plywood. MDF is what is under your formica kitchen or bath counter tops. Personally I won't use OSB for anything. Plywood is best for subfloors. 1/4" underlayment over staggered 1/2" CDX over staggered 3/4" T&G. Thats an old school solid floor!
JTL
New member
Insane, I agree about the structurally sound thing. This cabinet is really over built for the weight and there is no way it can move side to side or twist. Remember the weight of a tank is distributed over the entire area with the sides and corners taking most of the force. I have an old stand that I got from my neighbors when they moved. It is 10 years old, 48x13, made of cheap composite material and it doesn't even have a center support or a top. Yikes!! I once had a 8' by 2' stand that was made by a cabinet maker and it didn't have even a 2x2 in it. Personally, when I read the DIY threads I think most people seriously over build things which isn't all bad. No sub floor issue here, I have slab on grade.
I am going to do a hanging canopy, which is what I currently have with T5's. It is suspended by cables with pulleys so I can tilt it to do the maintenance. I am really excited about the LED lights which is going to be a contemporary look.
I am starting to realize that the thing I like about this hobby is the creative side. I need to start thinking about the livestock (corals) which I know nothing about.
John
I am going to do a hanging canopy, which is what I currently have with T5's. It is suspended by cables with pulleys so I can tilt it to do the maintenance. I am really excited about the LED lights which is going to be a contemporary look.
I am starting to realize that the thing I like about this hobby is the creative side. I need to start thinking about the livestock (corals) which I know nothing about.
John
insane
Member
The creativity is great and the oohs and aahs you get from friends is cool too. I just wish it was cheaper to do!
I hope you will be sharing pics when you get rolling. You have me interested more now that you have said contemporary LEDs. I have seen the ones that look like loc-line that look pretty cool. C'mon now spill. What are you thinking?
On those stands, sometimes you see one and wonder how it is holding itself up let alone an aquarium!
I hope you will be sharing pics when you get rolling. You have me interested more now that you have said contemporary LEDs. I have seen the ones that look like loc-line that look pretty cool. C'mon now spill. What are you thinking?
On those stands, sometimes you see one and wonder how it is holding itself up let alone an aquarium!
JTL
New member
Cheap and SW aquariums do not belong in the same sentence. My wife is actually the more creative person. We love contemporary but it is a struggle with a 50+ year old home in SW Florida. Maybe it is more Frank Lloyd Wright, which I also love. Modern and contemporary is expensive like aquariums and we are CHEAP people.
Have not zeroed in on the LED lighting yet but I think it will be easy to make it look neat. Think loft apartments, exposed duct work and all of that stuff. Then picture beautiful creatures in a tank below the lighting. I built my stand at 40" with granite tiles around the perimeter (we just finished that today). I want to be able to walk up to the tank and see things with a glass of wine and not have to bend over.
Have not zeroed in on the LED lighting yet but I think it will be easy to make it look neat. Think loft apartments, exposed duct work and all of that stuff. Then picture beautiful creatures in a tank below the lighting. I built my stand at 40" with granite tiles around the perimeter (we just finished that today). I want to be able to walk up to the tank and see things with a glass of wine and not have to bend over.
jbird69
New member
The subfloor in mobile homes is not (and never was) mdf. It is particle board underlayment. same product is used under formica. We also put it under vinyl flooring here on the west coast for underlayment (on top of the structural subfloor) MDF is a very fine density product, almost a super dense cardboard and is very common in interior moulding products. The shelving in cabinets and closets etc. are typically melamine or medite which is another particle product with a laminate skin. None of these are designed with any structural integrity.
OSB is an excellent product when used correctly...(double wall framing and roof sheething if the trusses/rafters are no more than 16" o.c.) Also, weve been using a subfloor product here for the last 10 years called "Edgegold" it is a t&g oriented strand board, and it is fantastic. its all we use out here and its stronger and more economical than t&g ply.
There is a product that is exterior grade MDF. Its called Medex. Ive been using it for years to build craftsman columns on front porches. Despite being designed for exterior application, if you dont prime it with a high quality primer, it will drink up water just like MDF. The trick is to prime it heavily and caulk the livin pus out of it and they will last a LONG time....
Wow. Talk about a tangent
insane
Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15375972#post15375972 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbird69
The subfloor in mobile homes is not (and never was) mdf. It is particle board underlayment. same product is used under formica. We also put it under vinyl flooring here on the west coast for underlayment (on top of the structural subfloor) MDF is a very fine density product, almost a super dense cardboard and is very common in interior moulding products. The shelving in cabinets and closets etc. are typically melamine or medite which is another particle product with a laminate skin. None of these are designed with any structural integrity.
OSB is an excellent product when used correctly...(double wall framing and roof sheething if the trusses/rafters are no more than 16" o.c.) Also, weve been using a subfloor product here for the last 10 years called "Edgegold" it is a t&g oriented strand board, and it is fantastic. its all we use out here and its stronger and more economical than t&g ply.
There is a product that is exterior grade MDF. Its called Medex. Ive been using it for years to build craftsman columns on front porches. Despite being designed for exterior application, if you dont prime it with a high quality primer, it will drink up water just like MDF. The trick is to prime it heavily and caulk the livin pus out of it and they will last a LONG time....
Wow. Talk about a tangent
MDF is Medium Density Fiberboard, looks like saw dust. AKA Particle Board.
OSB is Oriented Strand Board., looks like large wood chips. AKA Wafer Board.
MDF is what formica counter tops, cabinetry shells, Walmart furniture, your home stereo speakers and cheap aquarium stands are made of. I have used a lot of 3/4" MDF in building large subwoofer cabinets as it will not resonate as easily as plywood cabinets do. It is more dense.
OSB is what people use nowdays that do not want to spend the money on real plywood to try and save a buck. It will not last as long as real plywood. People use a single layer of 3/4" OSB T&G as a floor and it in no way can compare to the strength of a real plywood floor as I have already described. We actually use 1/4" mahogany veneered exterior grade underlayment here in the Midwest.
There is a huge difference between building codes between the West Coast and the Midwest. We do not have to build double walls using OSB. We only have to put it on the outside corners of structures as we do not have earthquakes. We can also use it on 24" centers on roof trusses.
The floor in the bathroom and hallway of a double wide trailer that I replaced about 20 years ago in the Ozarks of Missouri must have been one in a million because it sure didn't look like large compressed chips of wood when I was tearing it out. Not everyone builds things all across the country as they do on the West Coast. Sorry. Check the building codes for other regions before you tell others what is what because you didn't (and don't)know them. What's next rafter ties and anchor bolts?. Sill plates and tie downs?
Will take some pics tomorrow to show you what counter tops are actually made of under the formica.
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jbird69
New member
This is not a builders forum nor an argument venue so this is my last post here.
MDF. Look it up, its "medium" density fiber....not multi... Have you seen real MDF?
-MDF is like a compact mass of powder.
-particle board is a compact mass of crumb size wood chips.
-OSB is a compact mass of chips aprox. 1-3"
This is the best breakdown of the materials I found on a quick google search
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=Build/OSBMDFPart.html
The edgegold product I speak of is not inferior to plywood, quite contrary infact. It is modern quality subfloor structure sheeting and as a professional, lifetime contractor, would choose this everytime over plywood. Its simply a better choice for subfloor.
http://www.kentinternational.ca/brochures/Timberframe_System/edgegold_bro_09.pdf
The flooring you described that you found in a mobile home is particle board, Particle board is not "large compressed chips" that would be OSB.
Your codes have nothing to do with my being able to identify these products. This is what I do, Ive been working with them for a very long time. Its not a hobby, its my livelyhood.
your quote... "before you tell others what is what because you didn't (and don't)know them."... I think I see the pot calling the kettle black here....
Most guys on here can prove me wrong all day long with reefing stuff. but when it comes to building, its in my blood, its all I know.
Please do take a picture of whats under your formica and post it. You will prove to yourself its PARTICLE BOARD (AKA particle board...not MDF)
Now, werent we talking about a tank stand or something?...
PS My apologies to the original poster. I just felt the need to flag misinformation.
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