Measures of a quality LFS?
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thereefgeek
New member
I find the signs above the tanks that say "50% off all floaters for a limited time" very enticing. 
Combine that with the 10% club discount and I can't see how you'd pass up a deal like that.
Combine that with the 10% club discount and I can't see how you'd pass up a deal like that.
dots
Premium Member
I think selection is the most inportant. I have gone to each of the local shops and found the same clowns, tangs, frogspawns, hammers, two lame bubbles, and 3 brown acros at all. I am starting to think that they all use the same supplier and all fill out the same order sheet.
I was a little impressed recently when O st got more SPS rather than the couple they had been trying to sell for months.
But, the "Id thread of the yellow milli" someone picked up at Aqualife? the other day, I swore was a frag of the same I saw bought at O also.-see above
I am getting excited about Johns new place, he seems to have different stuff than all the rest.
Having a store for just SW rather than taking up needed room with FW would be nice.
Stores set up for frag cultivation would be cool, always having some there so they don't have to wait on the suppliers mercy.
Tanks set up for displays and access to frags, not reef demos. Really makes me mad to try to buy a piece from the center of the tank, and it takes a half hour to get someone to get it to get a good look at it, only to have it half dead.......ie: big reef O and main coral display exotic for example
You know, a little presentation and display...thats all
I was a little impressed recently when O st got more SPS rather than the couple they had been trying to sell for months.
But, the "Id thread of the yellow milli" someone picked up at Aqualife? the other day, I swore was a frag of the same I saw bought at O also.-see above
I am getting excited about Johns new place, he seems to have different stuff than all the rest.
Having a store for just SW rather than taking up needed room with FW would be nice.
Stores set up for frag cultivation would be cool, always having some there so they don't have to wait on the suppliers mercy.
Tanks set up for displays and access to frags, not reef demos. Really makes me mad to try to buy a piece from the center of the tank, and it takes a half hour to get someone to get it to get a good look at it, only to have it half dead.......ie: big reef O and main coral display exotic for example
You know, a little presentation and display...thats all
TotalKhaos
New member
Health, Selection, Pricing, knowledge.
Health- There is a mortality rate that the LFS has to deal with just as we do in our own tanks. I can understand a few sick or unhealthy fish in Q at a LFS. The real issue is how the LFS handles their sick and dead animals. Maintaining healthy, clean displays, seperating sick and dead/dying animals promptly etc is important to me.
Selection- Even the smallest of LFS can keep a decent selection of desirable corals and fish. If space is limiting, the ability and willingness to help locate and order a specimin you desire is nice.
Pricing- LFS has to make money - They Pay X for the animal, X for their overhead, and need to make X to put in their own pocket. With that being said I'd love to find a LFS that sells on volume, ie. Selling alot of goods for less, rather than a few goods for Alot. a LFS that is marking products up 2 to 3x the amount I can get said product for online or whatever will not earn repeat business from me.
Knowledge- Ok so the LFS cant afford to hire experts to run their stores and serve their customers. BUT when hiring they should try to hire people who are somewhat familiar with aquariums. Also a few weeks of orientation with new employees to help them understand some of the basics about SW in general and making sure they have the basics on the commonly stocked corals and fish. Having care and requirement sheets available about the animals they offer FS would be an excellent concept.
Health- There is a mortality rate that the LFS has to deal with just as we do in our own tanks. I can understand a few sick or unhealthy fish in Q at a LFS. The real issue is how the LFS handles their sick and dead animals. Maintaining healthy, clean displays, seperating sick and dead/dying animals promptly etc is important to me.
Selection- Even the smallest of LFS can keep a decent selection of desirable corals and fish. If space is limiting, the ability and willingness to help locate and order a specimin you desire is nice.
Pricing- LFS has to make money - They Pay X for the animal, X for their overhead, and need to make X to put in their own pocket. With that being said I'd love to find a LFS that sells on volume, ie. Selling alot of goods for less, rather than a few goods for Alot. a LFS that is marking products up 2 to 3x the amount I can get said product for online or whatever will not earn repeat business from me.
Knowledge- Ok so the LFS cant afford to hire experts to run their stores and serve their customers. BUT when hiring they should try to hire people who are somewhat familiar with aquariums. Also a few weeks of orientation with new employees to help them understand some of the basics about SW in general and making sure they have the basics on the commonly stocked corals and fish. Having care and requirement sheets available about the animals they offer FS would be an excellent concept.
snowroach
New member
What does it for me, other then having a good selection, is staff. In any kind of store actually, I hate pushy, un-knowledgeable or unhelpfull staff.
With out saying names, there are some stores that you can never get anyone to help. Then there are the others that staff are breathing down your neck the whole time. It's hard to find places that have a happy medium between good customer service with-out being pushy and completely ignoring you.
Then there are the un-knowledgeable staff (or the ones who think they are, but arn't really). I remember when I first started with SW I went into a LFS and the guy working there tried to tell me that I was having algae problems because I didn't have ENOUGH coral! He said the best thing to do was to buy about $500-600 in coral (he actually said this amount, not an amount in coral) at once and that would get rid of the cyano and hair algae problem. Gee, you think he wanted to help me get rid of the algae or sell make $500-600? (FYI, I bought a $80 RO/DI on ebay and that solved my algae problems).
With out saying names, there are some stores that you can never get anyone to help. Then there are the others that staff are breathing down your neck the whole time. It's hard to find places that have a happy medium between good customer service with-out being pushy and completely ignoring you.
Then there are the un-knowledgeable staff (or the ones who think they are, but arn't really). I remember when I first started with SW I went into a LFS and the guy working there tried to tell me that I was having algae problems because I didn't have ENOUGH coral! He said the best thing to do was to buy about $500-600 in coral (he actually said this amount, not an amount in coral) at once and that would get rid of the cyano and hair algae problem. Gee, you think he wanted to help me get rid of the algae or sell make $500-600? (FYI, I bought a $80 RO/DI on ebay and that solved my algae problems).
xia
New member
Everything above sounds good, but what would it take to set one store apart from others?
I really like the way John has things setup in his garage. You go in there and it's like a treasure hunt or a frag swap. There's so many frags and choices. You don't really know what your going to find. It's fun to shop there.
The lighting is good, and it's easy to see every frag up close. All the frag prices are clearly listed. I don't know what liabilities he would have, but John was cool enough to just let me bag what I wanted, since he was busy. Talk about trusting your customers.
Some things that might set a store apart from others:
1. Using containers when appropriate instead of bags--How many of you have gotten into your car and then go, "Where am I going to put this bag so that it doesn't roll everwhere and then possibly spill all over my car?" (Of course because you never remember to bring your cooler) Small containers fit perfectly into a cup holder.
2. Provide tongs and let customers set apart what they like in separate area. This just makes it easier to decide, when you have too many choices. Although a bit risky if kids want to try.
3. Provide a large well stocked Limited Edition section.
4. Posted pictures and info to help educate on what each coral you see is called and how to care for it.
5. Free water tests.
6. Free and automatic dips for pests.
7. Consistent low prices and price matching, so I don't feel like I have to go to three different stores to get the cheapest price.
8. A consignment area to promote aquacultured corals and sell used equipment (if space allowed)
9. And why not while were at it? Make it family friendly, by providing a place for my kids to play. Have a TV playing Finding Nemo 24/7 or an educational reef show. Kids love to feed fish, so maybe a small pond stocked with hungry fish, where kids can buy pellets to feed (well regulated of course). For safety make sure low positioned tanks are covered so kids can't reach in. Oh and of course a changing station in the bathroom!
10. Last one: They support MARS!
I really like the way John has things setup in his garage. You go in there and it's like a treasure hunt or a frag swap. There's so many frags and choices. You don't really know what your going to find. It's fun to shop there.
The lighting is good, and it's easy to see every frag up close. All the frag prices are clearly listed. I don't know what liabilities he would have, but John was cool enough to just let me bag what I wanted, since he was busy. Talk about trusting your customers.
Some things that might set a store apart from others:
1. Using containers when appropriate instead of bags--How many of you have gotten into your car and then go, "Where am I going to put this bag so that it doesn't roll everwhere and then possibly spill all over my car?" (Of course because you never remember to bring your cooler) Small containers fit perfectly into a cup holder.
2. Provide tongs and let customers set apart what they like in separate area. This just makes it easier to decide, when you have too many choices. Although a bit risky if kids want to try.
3. Provide a large well stocked Limited Edition section.
4. Posted pictures and info to help educate on what each coral you see is called and how to care for it.
5. Free water tests.
6. Free and automatic dips for pests.
7. Consistent low prices and price matching, so I don't feel like I have to go to three different stores to get the cheapest price.
8. A consignment area to promote aquacultured corals and sell used equipment (if space allowed)
9. And why not while were at it? Make it family friendly, by providing a place for my kids to play. Have a TV playing Finding Nemo 24/7 or an educational reef show. Kids love to feed fish, so maybe a small pond stocked with hungry fish, where kids can buy pellets to feed (well regulated of course). For safety make sure low positioned tanks are covered so kids can't reach in. Oh and of course a changing station in the bathroom!
10. Last one: They support MARS!
H20Sidhe
New member
I am in almost complete agreement with TotalKhaos. I would just reorder the items. My priorities:
1. Healthy appropriate livestock
2. Knowledge & Customer Service
3. Selection
4. Price
There is one large LFS that I won't even go into any more because they can't satisfy my #1 & #2 priorities. Their prices are good, but there are many sick tanks in the store, which I will not select from. On the occasion when I have found the fish or coral I am interested in, looking healthy and in a tank with only healthy looking tankmates, invariably the animal has still died after I get it home. [Ironically, they usually have many tanks with lights off & "NFS" on the front in which the animals may look healthier than the ones that are being offered for sale]. I have had better luck with the health of animals I purchased in San Francisco & transported all the way back to Sacramento. When shopping for dry goods (where health is not a consideration), I could not get waited on in a timely fashion. I can entertain myself a long time browsing in a LFS, but the last three times I was there, I got tired of waiting & ended up going to another store to make my purchase.
The other things that I really appreciate in a LFS are identifying & promoting which of their livestock is aquacultured/captive bred and endorsing local clubs like MARS (discounts for members are nice). Finally, since we know that fish locally tank bred and corals locally propagated are usually healthier than those purchased from wholesalers & shipped, I have always favored the stores that will buy from their customers who are breeding or propagating.
A separate but related thought: The internet has put a lot of pressure on LFS. In several areas of retail trade, the ability to buy on the internet for less money has threatened local businesses who can't compete on price alone - but the internet provides limitations to offering good customer service. If the LFS that provides good customer service is driven out of business, who will teach the Newbies and everyone else, (or direct them to resources such as ReefCentral)? Less knowledge ->poor selection of suitable animals & poor husbandry -> more dead fish & people frustrated with the hobby. As Drew Weiner of RPI pointed out at our last meeting, that can be detrimental to all of us. I do shop on the internet, but I try to be mindful of supporting responsible local businesses as much as possible.
That's my $.02
Sherie
1. Healthy appropriate livestock
2. Knowledge & Customer Service
3. Selection
4. Price
There is one large LFS that I won't even go into any more because they can't satisfy my #1 & #2 priorities. Their prices are good, but there are many sick tanks in the store, which I will not select from. On the occasion when I have found the fish or coral I am interested in, looking healthy and in a tank with only healthy looking tankmates, invariably the animal has still died after I get it home. [Ironically, they usually have many tanks with lights off & "NFS" on the front in which the animals may look healthier than the ones that are being offered for sale]. I have had better luck with the health of animals I purchased in San Francisco & transported all the way back to Sacramento. When shopping for dry goods (where health is not a consideration), I could not get waited on in a timely fashion. I can entertain myself a long time browsing in a LFS, but the last three times I was there, I got tired of waiting & ended up going to another store to make my purchase.
The other things that I really appreciate in a LFS are identifying & promoting which of their livestock is aquacultured/captive bred and endorsing local clubs like MARS (discounts for members are nice). Finally, since we know that fish locally tank bred and corals locally propagated are usually healthier than those purchased from wholesalers & shipped, I have always favored the stores that will buy from their customers who are breeding or propagating.
A separate but related thought: The internet has put a lot of pressure on LFS. In several areas of retail trade, the ability to buy on the internet for less money has threatened local businesses who can't compete on price alone - but the internet provides limitations to offering good customer service. If the LFS that provides good customer service is driven out of business, who will teach the Newbies and everyone else, (or direct them to resources such as ReefCentral)? Less knowledge ->poor selection of suitable animals & poor husbandry -> more dead fish & people frustrated with the hobby. As Drew Weiner of RPI pointed out at our last meeting, that can be detrimental to all of us. I do shop on the internet, but I try to be mindful of supporting responsible local businesses as much as possible.
That's my $.02
Sherie
snowroach
New member
I think the main thing is when a store does somthing you like let them know, and support the store by telling your friends and family about them. That way they stay in business and do well.
If a store does business in a in a way you don't like, don't go shop there. Thats what I do, I've given several stores in the area way too many chances and now I'm too the point that I refuse to go there.
If a store does business in a in a way you don't like, don't go shop there. Thats what I do, I've given several stores in the area way too many chances and now I'm too the point that I refuse to go there.
alexchern75
New member
I think customer service should go next to Healthy appropriate livestock, not below. I like to walk in and find healthy stock and employees that are friendly and knolegable (and speak english)
sometimes I have felt like I was bothering employees when I had questions. the other thing is fair and equal prices for everyone, you always hear about LFS' taking advantage of the customer's lack of knowlege...how about the $45 cleaner shrimp we saw a while back from a former LFS owner...
sometimes I have felt like I was bothering employees when I had questions. the other thing is fair and equal prices for everyone, you always hear about LFS' taking advantage of the customer's lack of knowlege...how about the $45 cleaner shrimp we saw a while back from a former LFS owner...
Nu2SW
New member
Customer Service, Friendly and helpfull employee's AS when i just picked up all my live rock from Ostreet and they helped me out to the car with it. I know if I was at another LFS down in South Sac, They would not of done that.
The willingness to explain something to someone incase they dont know what it is.
Asking what you have just to make sure what you are getting is OK with the rest of your tank" for all the newbies" For which i had a bad experience at a LFS some time ago when I first started FW.
A well maintained store, That's one thing I hate is a un-organized and dirty store.
A very good selection of items and a very nice price.
And not be in a Mall parking lot or some other High Traffic area like a walmart parking lot.
And the Kids play area idea... IM totaly supporting that, I got 2 little ones and would love to just drop them off and daddy can go shopping in his toy store.
The willingness to explain something to someone incase they dont know what it is.
Asking what you have just to make sure what you are getting is OK with the rest of your tank" for all the newbies" For which i had a bad experience at a LFS some time ago when I first started FW.
A well maintained store, That's one thing I hate is a un-organized and dirty store.
A very good selection of items and a very nice price.
And not be in a Mall parking lot or some other High Traffic area like a walmart parking lot.
And the Kids play area idea... IM totaly supporting that, I got 2 little ones and would love to just drop them off and daddy can go shopping in his toy store.
Wee-Reef Master
New member
I'd say a store that caters to the Reef will get my vote and dollar. That, combined with a friendly staff and good price are prime. There's nothing like going into a shop, being called by your first name, and hagging out with folks like buds. That's what does it for me.
thereefgeek
New member
Well, I'm not too sure about the fun land romper room area, but I like all the other points made.
*LFS's shouldn't take the "Revolving Door" mentality with regards to livestock. "If it dies they'll be back for another one" just drives me crazy. Pirce is directly reflective of how healthy the animals are. Rob at Pet Connection would give me $12 per mounted frag of Xenia and then sell it for $40. The conditions at that store are so pathetic that they'd have to hike the prices just to offset the loss of livestock. KEEP 'EM HEALTHY AND YOU CAN SELL MORE FOR CHEAPER. Also, don't stock Crinoids, Chromodoris sp. nudibranchs, Stonefish, or black tip reef sharks. It's absoutely pointless to sell animals you're guaranteed to kill or that can kill you!
*Staff, period. When some teenager at the LFS tries to convince me I need Brand X hardware, drygoods, or additives I don't give it a second thought because I'm pretty confident in my reefkeeping. However it seriously bothers me when they tell these things to new-to the-hobby customers just to sell them some high priced peice of junk. It's not an expensive or complicated hobby if you start out with the right equipment and information to begin with. A $400 skimmer works much better than 4 $100 skimmers.
*LFS's shouldn't take the "Revolving Door" mentality with regards to livestock. "If it dies they'll be back for another one" just drives me crazy. Pirce is directly reflective of how healthy the animals are. Rob at Pet Connection would give me $12 per mounted frag of Xenia and then sell it for $40. The conditions at that store are so pathetic that they'd have to hike the prices just to offset the loss of livestock. KEEP 'EM HEALTHY AND YOU CAN SELL MORE FOR CHEAPER. Also, don't stock Crinoids, Chromodoris sp. nudibranchs, Stonefish, or black tip reef sharks. It's absoutely pointless to sell animals you're guaranteed to kill or that can kill you!
*Staff, period. When some teenager at the LFS tries to convince me I need Brand X hardware, drygoods, or additives I don't give it a second thought because I'm pretty confident in my reefkeeping. However it seriously bothers me when they tell these things to new-to the-hobby customers just to sell them some high priced peice of junk. It's not an expensive or complicated hobby if you start out with the right equipment and information to begin with. A $400 skimmer works much better than 4 $100 skimmers.
Nu2SW
New member
Rich,
Do you have kids?
You would know how hard it is to go shopping with some little ones screaming in your ear while they are being held." to make sure they dont get into anything"
Now the baby changing station thats a little out there, But a 12x12 area enclosed with toys and a mounted tv would be great and not that expensive to maintain and it would bring in alot of business.
Do you have kids?
You would know how hard it is to go shopping with some little ones screaming in your ear while they are being held." to make sure they dont get into anything"
Now the baby changing station thats a little out there, But a 12x12 area enclosed with toys and a mounted tv would be great and not that expensive to maintain and it would bring in alot of business.
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Just install a 240g for the kids
I think staff and store conditions are my top priotities when assessing a stores "worthyness" of my dollars. If I kneel on the floor to get a better look at corals, get my knees wet AND see several ancient floaters, you can bet I'll not be spending any cash there.
Keep it clean, know your stock (dry & wet) and know your customer (oh, and know your sh... too, but don't act like it don't stink ). It's really not hard to do (having done it for several years).
I think staff and store conditions are my top priotities when assessing a stores "worthyness" of my dollars. If I kneel on the floor to get a better look at corals, get my knees wet AND see several ancient floaters, you can bet I'll not be spending any cash there.
Keep it clean, know your stock (dry & wet) and know your customer (oh, and know your sh... too, but don't act like it don't stink
). It's really not hard to do (having done it for several years).thereefgeek
New member
EDITED (so as to not drive this thread totally off topic, get banned from Reef Central, or offend those of you that made the choice to have children)
Remember the NEMO thread and the stroller sign in that store?
Remember the NEMO thread and the stroller sign in that store?
alexchern75
New member
Thanks Rich, good move, you did that just in time, I was about to jump in the ring and have a go around.
I thought this was about to turn in to another one of those "gone to hell threads"
I thought this was about to turn in to another one of those "gone to hell threads"
thereefgeek
New member
Yeah, that coulda' been ugly (did you read it before I hit edit? 
)
)
alexchern75
New member
yes I did 
fatsuki
New member
So ridiculous. Your kids are your responsibility, not the store's where you shop. If you don't like your kids screaming in your ear, then don't take them shopping with you. The other customer's in the store (that's me) would appreciate it. And no, I don't have kids...BY CHOICE. So I don't really appreciate being subjected to someone elses little screaming bundle of joy.
JMNSHO
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