Methelyne Blue baths at LFS

[baobao]

Lee,

Thanks a lot for share this highly practical bit of knowledge.

A couple of follow up questions. You said, " I use 5 drops of a 2% stock solution of methylene blue per liter of dip water. " Would 5 drops of this product be ok ?http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

You also said, " I don't keep anemonefishes, but if I did, I'd would treat the wild caught ones for sure for Brooklynella disease whether they seemed to have it or not."

Could you elaborate on the treatment for Brook.? Is it similar to the FW dip with Methyl? I've heard of the use of formalin in the dip? If so, how would you prepare the solution? I list two products. I have the first one. Please give your .02 on which to use and just a general guide on procedure.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

 

[baobao]

Regarding the losses of the three fishes - it all started with a very large Chaetodon Xanthocephalus (Yellowhead) - I heard that it is very stubborn in eating to the point that some will simply refuse food? Thus, I kept trying to get it to feed with live brine, nori, even put some Condylactus - all to no avail.

Anyways, after about a week, it seemed to breathing abnormally really fast ( all though in general, it seems to me that butterfly gill rates are faster than that of other fishes). The water was not the issue because I took water from my main display tank. Thus, my assessment was that it had some for of disease( probably velvet). I attempted to medicate with Seachem's Paraguard, but it was too late. The angel by then was showing signs, which just verified that there was some form of disease, probably contaminated from the butterfly. I transfered the angel to another tank and attempted to medicate using Pointex. (My LFS claimed that Pointex is much better than Cupramine though in the directions for Pointex there was specific level of copper that was supposed to be maintained). I was unsuccessful as the angel succumbed to death after several days.

Thus, my takeaway from this experience is that I should be more prophylactic in my QT procedure and medicate lightly with copper should there be any evidence to suggest anormality? As standard QT procedure, I've been incorporating hypo more frequently. I've heard that this is not stressful to the fish, so I'm wondering Lee, why you don't use it as part of your standard QT procedure? However, I am wondering whether I shouldn't incorporate copper - the reason again is that velvet is immune to hypo. Now I understand that medicating with copper may have side effects, but perhaps I could use it in a very limited dose for prevention of loss during an extended QT period?

 

[leebca]

baobao,

That methylene blue product is made by Kordon. It is an approximately 2.3% solution of methylene blue salt. It will be fine to use. Make sure you hold the bottle vertically when you drop the liquid, and be a bit conservative with the drops (i.e., for every 2 liters, use 9 drops instead of 10).

About the two formalin products: The Formalin 3 is diluted formalin. It would not be my choice, but you can perform the formalin dip using it. The idea is, no mater which formalin product you use, the same end concentration is to be reached in the dip. Instructions for the use of formalin are assuming you're using a 37% solution of it (not Formalin 3 which is a 3% solution of it).

Formalin treatment I use is similar to this one:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/formalinbaths.html
There is a link to TerryB's article too that is very much worth reading.

The Brooklynella disease is described here:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/brooklynella.html

There are downsides to using copper indiscriminantly. Many LFSs use copper in their store water just to make sure the fish live long enough to get them to your aquarium (where the LFS most often will no longer guarantee the lives of the fish).

There are reports mixed with concerns that a copper treatment:
1) disrupts or even kills beneficial bacteria in the fish's intestinal track. These bacteria are needed for the proper digestion of foods.

2) interferes with some physiological/bio-chemical processes within the fish.

3) can lead to organ damage. And,

3) the constant presence will retard or destroy the bacteria needed for a proper nitrogen cycle activity in the aquarium.

Besides the above technical concerns, I have an ethical concern. Is the only way you can keep fish alive is to constantly treat them for disease? Is this the way our hobby should 'progress?'

The rapid breathing of fishes can occur from several sources, but can generally be attributed to some kind of stress. Your assumption that it is a disease may be a leap. There are so many possibilities. Just to name a few: oxygen level; poisoning; mental/psychological; contamination; nutrition, disease (MV, MI, bacteria, etc.); parasite; gill damage; etc. You see, a single choice of medication or action just doesn't cover it all. In other words, you're not going to get out of having to keep a proper environment, that easily :rollface:

Long term effects of a hyposalinity treatment are unclear. Still, it is not something the fishes we keep would normally come across in nature. Their systems are establish over thousands of years for the salinity of the sea. Again, unless there is a specific purpose to put the fish in an unnatural environment (e.g., a specific disease) then I would avoid it. Thus my procedure doesn't use hyposalinity nor copper until they are needed (except for tangs!).

 

[baobao]

Lee,

Thanks. You are absolutely correct about the LFS practice regarding copper. The fish owner actually told me that he has to medicate his tanks with copper because he cannot afford to have an ich breakout and has to protect his livestock. there is a constant influx of incoming stock and some of it may have ich - thus, he says, how else to control the potential parasite? unfortunately, i purchased these fish from him and they probably still had disease. i'm getting the impression that it is probably safest to buy directly online or directly via mail order.

 

[zemuron114]

the LFS here in hawaii treats fish in furazone green. The guy swears by it and has been using it for 30+ years. He also uses it when he ships fish and also when he collects. not really MB, but i thought i would share that

 

[leebca]

baobao,

Don't assume that fish you're getting online haven't been kept in copper, too.

You can do this. . .Get a good copper test kit (Salifert will do) and test the water in the fish bag.

Good luck! Good exchange of posts.

 

[Steven Pro]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6262469#post6262469 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leebca
baobao,

Don't assume that fish you're getting online haven't been kept in copper, too.

You can do this. . .Get a good copper test kit (Salifert will do) and test the water in the fish bag.

Good luck! Good exchange of posts.

I would not also assume that fish purchased from any online vendor is cared for any better than your LFS. At least with the LFS would can evaluate the establishment and fishes firsthand.

 

[baobao]

Lee,

Do you still advocate the method articulated in this thread as your standard acclimation process?

Or has the method changed, and if so, could you please share some improvements?

Thanks!

The reason I ask the question is because I've been having more success matching the temperature PH of the QT to the bag of the incoming fish and then dropping fish into QT directly.

I believe this procedure may be more appropriate than the slow acclimation one when fish have undergone a long journey, because upon arrival they are usually in very low PH water that contains high ammonia. Release of oxygen and slow acclimation causes the ammonia to become toxic, resulting in some losses.

However, I do think it is important to have fish undergo a dip to decrease/eliminate any parasites, but would think one would want to conduct such dips on the second day after the fish have acclimated to the QT?

 

[leebca]

My procedure is for the 'masses.' Most people I don't suspect will be able to accurately determine the pH of the fish water in the bag. Also, the pH of the water with the fish begins changing just as soon as you open the bag. So, for a more stable transition, it would be more common to acclimate as mentioned.

If you are sure of the pH of the bag water, then changing the pH of the QT water to match the bag water AND changing the salinity, then floating the bag to match the temperature, would take care of everything except the other constituent differences (organics, minerals, etc. depending upon the filtration of the QT). Most of us believe these other components aren't that important and if you are of that school, then under the above conditions, it would a good plan.

I would still not want to add any bag water to the QT. And I would still want to perform the dip before letting the fish into the QT. Why would you want to put the parasites in your QT and then, after that dip the fish to remove them off the fish only to return the fish back into the contaminated QT water? Maybe I'm missing something in your procedure though.

 

[baobao]

"changing the pH of the QT water to match the bag water AND changing the salinity, then floating the bag to match the temperature, "
I think Terry condones the practice of adding fish directly into water with salinity less than 14ppt - I've been following this practice.

The reason for my hesitation to conduct the water dip immediately is the incremental stress upon a fish which already is highly stressed in the case that has been in the bag for a very long time. I think it is important to get the fish out of the high ammonia water. After cutting the bag, time is of the essence because the PH increases causing the ammonia to become toxic. Thus, If I need extra time, I always immediately add Ammo-Lock to bag. If possible, I try to release the fish immediately after cutting the bag. Not sure if this is true or not, but my sense is that the PH of the QT should be equate or error on being lower than the PH in the bag.

However, you raise a very valid point on whether this practice makes sense - by releasing the fish into QT before this dip, I risk introducing pathogens - not a problem if it's ich, because the salinity is less than 14 ppt, but that will do nothing if the fish has Brooklynella, Amyloodinium, or Gill flukes.

I just think over a long trip, the risk of losing fish due to slow acclimation is higher than introducing pathogen and then treating for it? Is that statement totally foolish?

 

[leebca]

Not foolish at all (IMHO). You're trying to weigh which is the worse case scenario.

But I would inject that you are not the only one over the past 30 years to have considered a better approach and guess what? None has come forward.

A fish that has suffered through capture; collector's holding bins; oversease shipment to wholesalers; wholesaler's holding tanks; then to LFSs or distributors; then shipped to you; has gone through a lot already. If it has survived this handling, that last two hours in bagged water isn't a major issue, in my opinion.

You're focusing on the relatively very small aspect of the final trip that fish has gone through and you want it to be treated well. But the sad fact is that no one along the way has given that fish any more consideration then say an orange gets. The fish is a commodity to those that sell and handle it.

How do you think the wholesaler acclimated the fish they get from overseas?

Although there is much conern over proper acclimation, who will get the other three entities to do the same?

I'd keep the disease out of my QT if I can because the disease causes more stress than opening the bag and acclimating the fish, in my opinion. But if you choose not to do an immediate dip, then just skip it altogether. I can see no value in chasing around a fish that was just trying to acclimate into your QT to give it a dip that does little good at this point. You have to figure in the stress of chasing down a fish to give it the dip, too.

 

[MeskeetDog]

When ready (pH, temp, and sp. gr. in bag match my QT), I pour fish and bag water into a double plastic container, with plastic screen lid. The inner container is a plastic colander. I pick up the colander and put the dripping colander and fish into the dip. At the proper time (see above) I remove the colander and fish from the dip and dip the fish in normal QT water to rinse in another plastic container. I then lift the dripping colander and gently sink it in the QT and the fish calmly swims out of the colander. (No nets; reduced trauma). All bag water is discarded.

Can you take a picture of the colander and where you got yours? Cant think of a place to find one. One for a salad? Walmart?

 

[MeskeetDog]

I then move the fish for dipping and/or putting it into my aquarium, by handling the colander. I don't net the fish, I just raise the colander from its acclimated (bag) water; then sink it into a solid plastic bowl of FW dip water; then raise it out of the FW dip and then into a bowl of aquarium water for rinsing; then raise the colander and sink it in the aquarium.

Is this any clearer? Don't hesitate to ask ? if it isn't't clear.

I think im confused.....basicly bowl w/ strainer (with bag water) to FW dip. Then BACK to acclimated bag water bowl. Finally to QT Tank. Did i get it correct? Oh and with what time intervals for each? And basicly laying flat in colander for a few seconds exposed in the air in less stressful than being netted?

 

[WuHT]

meskeetdog and his resurrecting old threads ...

anyways the colander just needs to be small enough for w/e buckets you're working with

 

[LauraCline]

MY LFS always puts a little bit of MB in the water to bring the fish home in. It oxygenates the water and they seem to have less diseases than other LFS.

 

[MeskeetDog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12799303#post12799303 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WuHT
meskeetdog and his resurrecting old threads ...

anyways the colander just needs to be small enough for w/e buckets you're working with

LOL...well Im new to the forum and reading like a mad man so Im up to speed...sorry :-/

 

[limitdown]

I understand that many fishkeepers make it a standard practice to do a freshwater dip for ALL new fish, primarily to rid microbes and flukes.
The meth blue is to calm the fish.
I also make it standard practice to do a 5minute meth blue freshwater dip for ALL new fish.