MH bulb color

D

DenverDave

New member
Hi,

I have a nano tank with a Current USA 150W DE MH plus actinics fixture. I have SPS "zoned" at the top for maximum color. I have a Cali and an Oregon BLue torte that are not as blue as I hoped for. So, I switched from a Phoenix 14K bulb to a Radium 20K, and the Radium is actually whiter than the Phoenix!

I bought this bulb because I was told that it would help coral coloration. Now, I realize that the spectral plot can show things that the human eye is not sensitive to, but it sure seems like a whiter looking bulb will not do anything to change the pigments in my tortes.

Can anyone help me out with this? Is the Radium 20K really "bluer"? Anyone have any experience with this bulb in the 150W DE version?

One thing I did notice- the greens seem to pop a little more under the Radium, but the water looks less blue than with the Phoenix.

Thanks
Dave
 
Re: MH bulb color

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15021146#post15021146 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DenverDave
Hi,

I have a nano tank with a Current USA 150W DE MH plus actinics fixture. I have SPS "zoned" at the top for maximum color. I have a Cali and an Oregon BLue torte that are not as blue as I hoped for. So, I switched from a Phoenix 14K bulb to a Radium 20K, and the Radium is actually whiter than the Phoenix!

I bought this bulb because I was told that it would help coral coloration. Now, I realize that the spectral plot can show things that the human eye is not sensitive to, but it sure seems like a whiter looking bulb will not do anything to change the pigments in my tortes.

Can anyone help me out with this? Is the Radium 20K really "bluer"? Anyone have any experience with this bulb in the 150W DE version?

One thing I did notice- the greens seem to pop a little more under the Radium, but the water looks less blue than with the Phoenix.

Thanks
Dave
Click to expand...

Well, you just learned a valuable lesson. The Bulbs K rating is nothing more than a rating by the manufacturer. There are 14000K rated bulbs that are really 20000K plus in output and are actually bluer than 20000K rated bulbs. Some 20000K's are bluer than others. Some 14000 or 15000K bulbs actually measure closer to 10000K or less and some 10000K's actually measure lower than 10000K by a signifigant margin.

The Radium 150 watt is a very nice bulb, high quality but not super blue although it does measure 20000K plus. It just isnt as blue as the Phoenix which is really a 20000K plus bulb despite the 14000K rating.

It takes 100 hours to burn in and stabilize in color but it probably wont get bluer. However, you are used to the Phoenix, so give the Radium some time as you may end up really liking the color as you get used to it. The Radium is a whiter lamp with a noticeable but not overwhelming blue tint. The spectrum of the Radium obviously enhances the color of the coral differently/better than the Phoenix so you are noticing the green "pop". Many of the bluer bulbs wash some colors out because of the overwhelming amount of blue given off by the bulb. The enchanced green "pop" could be because there isnt as much blue in the Radiums output/color to wash the color out or there may be more energy in a part for the spectrum in the Radium versus the Phoenix that enchances that corals green color. Or a combination of both. But the Radium bulbs are popular for a reason. Reefers that use them love the way they make their corals and tank look.

Again, it doesnt have much to do with the ratings. Two different bulbs with the same K rating will more often than not look very different. Personally, I dont like super blue bulbs and some are worse than others. The blue bulbs with virtually no energy other than the huge blue spike can look very monochromatic and create a washed out look to many of the colors, even completely washing some of the colors out. It can be a big visual shock going from a bluer bulb to a whiter bulb so you have to give it some time to get used to the way your tank and corals look under the new light before you decide whether you like the effect or not. I think you'll end up really liking the Radium. Personally, I immediately realized all the colors I wasnt seeing when I switched from a super blue bulb to a whiter bulb. If the bulb is too blue, you just cant see the true colors of the tank and it just doesnt look natural at all. But everyone has their "threshold" of what is too much blue and some reefers just really love the super blue look. So my preference is nothing more than my own opinion.

Rememeber, You can also experiment with different color flourescents to tweak the color of the tank.
 
DarG,

Thank you for the detailed response.

Going off of what you said, my main concern is that of BLue Tortes in the tank (Cali and Oregon). THe Oregon is really, really blue at the tips of the coralites but quickly transitions to a dull purple down the coralite and then all over the trunk. Is there a chance that the radium could improve the color of the torte (more blue wavelengths I am not seeing in the water), or would a bulb that LOOKS less blue probably not help.

In other words, was the Phoenix my best shot at a blue blue torte?

THanks!
Dave
 
The coral isnt going to soak up the color of the bulb like a piece of cloth in dye. So no, the bluer lamp wont necessarily really help the blue tort to blue up ... not counting the effect the bulb color creates while it is on.

You know your tank so just keep an eye out at how your corals are doing under the new lamps. If there was one magic lamp or lighting source then everyone would be using it.

Technically speaking, the sun is a full spectrum light source so the corals on the worlds reefs arent receiving an artificial light with huge blue spike. Eventhough the bluer light is what penetrates more at the deeper ocean depths, a lot of these blue lamps make the tank appear much bluer than what the reef looks like.
So the bottom line is how your corals respond to the artificial light they are receiving. If you feel your tort and other corals are coloring up better under the Radiums then you have your answer in terms of which bulb does a better job for your corals and for you in your particular system.

I cant answer the question of which bulb will make your blue tort bluer, only your blue tort can. That is, other than saying that the bluer phoenix bulb doesnt necessarily translate to a bluer blue tort. Some reefers feel that the fuller spectrum light sources are ultimately best for corals in terms of color (and growth) and that means a very "warm" looking tank (unless additional blue lamps are used to offset the color of the yellowish tint of the full spectrum lamps).
 
Thanks DarG,

You know, what you just said seems contradictory to the statement 10000K for growth, 20000K for color. It seems like you are saying that that statement isn't categorically true.

I guess the lack of blue could also be due to intensity? It came from a tank with 400W Radiums to a tank of (now) 150W radium.

I would value anything else that you can additionally add, based on my two statements above.

Dave
 
Depends on what 20K for color means. Does it mean color of the tank or true coloration of the corals?

Im not contrdicting the statement, I dont know what is true. I said, some reefers feel that full spectrum, which 10K is much closer to, is best for color and growth. I dont think that man has created a better lighting source than the Sun ... if thats contradictory.

All I basically was trying to say was that different things work for different hobbyists. But sticking to the above, 20K for color, well the Radium is a 20k plus bulb. I havent heard anyone say, the bluer the bulb, the better the color of the corals. But that doesnt deny the fact that some reefers may have had their best colors with bluer lamps. And some with fuller spectrum lamps. Some with something in the middle.

But here is another thought that could be completely viable ... If the color of your tort was better under the 400 watt Radium lthen maybe it is simply a matter of par. And par is the bottom line according to many reefers as well. And if it is a simple matter of par, then the fuller spectrum lamps generally have more of it. With 150 watt halides, there really is no premium lamp for par and blue color. So if you need to increase par to color up the blue tort, then going with lower K lamp is the only way its going to happen with 150 watt halides. But again, im not saying that is the answer. But it could be a par issue ... right?

See ... i can only answer questions with more questions. Too many variables here and I dont have all the answers and probably every reply you get would have to be based on what has worked for the person who is replying. Which could mean 10 different answers from 10 different hobbyists when it comes to bulbs or lighting.

Thats why I think the best answer, since you bought the new bulbs, is that you have to see which one works best for your coral in your system. And if neither is getting you the color that the tort had in the other system ... rethink it. Is it just a par issue then?
And as im sure you are very aware ... lighting is just one piece of the puzzle.

BTW ... I prefer a crisp white or white/blue tint lamp. Like the Ushio 20K (or radium) or Iwasaki 14K in 250 DE or ...
But I cant say I "know" these work best because I dont.

Im not making any statements here that I know to be THE answer. Im just adding my input, suggestions, questions, ideas.
I would never argue that what I have done or do is better with anyone who does something differently than I have and has been successful doing so. So Im really NOT stating anything that goes against what would be considered common wisdom. I just think that there are more ways than one to achieve the same success and what works for one may not work for another and vice versa. You just have to look through the Tanks or the Month and see how different the hobbyists tanks are in regards to lighting and everything else , yet they all have great tanks.
 
What kind of ballasts do you have electronic/magnetic? And how old is the Tort, maybe its still adjusting to your tank.

BTW, I just switched from 150w XM 20K to 150w Pheonix 14K with magnetic ballasts. And I would say they are almost identical in color. I actually had the XM in 1 side and the Pheonix in the other and asked 2 people which was bluer and/or brighter. They both said they thought it looked like the same bulb. So go figure, but IMO the color is almost the same but the Pheonix is slightly brighter. I was getting pretty good growth with the 20K XM's, so I hope the Pheonix are going to be at least the same if not a little better.
 
DarG,

Thank you so much for all of your help- it really helps me see the bigger picture.

I understand most of what you said, and the PAR issue makes sense- I guess your saying that a 400W radium has great PAR AND is fairly blue, but you can't really get both with a 150W bulb.

Let me see if I understand you- I went to Sanjay's sight (the one where you can plug in your bulb, wattage, and ballast and then receive a graph of the spectral output of your bulb). I assumed that my Current USA Sundial 150W HQI was the 1st ballast M81? and received a PAR value for the Radium, which was higher than the PAR value I seem to remember hearing for the Phoenix.

Therefore, the Radium simulates the Sun better and might actually do more per watt than the Phoenix, right?

Thanks again!
Dave
 
I have a Coralife fixture and its an M80 ballast. Yours could be the same but I am not 100% sure. Whatever it is I'm sure its fairly similar to mine.

3 months isn't that long. How old were the bulbs before you just replaced them? The new ones should help regaurdless. Is it growing at all? And do the polyps come out? I noticed when I had a blue Tort that is was 1 of my slowest if not the slowest growing SPS I had. Unfortunatly I lost most of it recently and only have about a 1" frag I was able to save from a 12"-14" piece. It was almost 3/4" thick at the base. It was my favorite staghorn I had, and was pretty bummed when it died. But the little guy is looking good so far, just slow going compaired to others.
 
Hi Matt:

The bulbs were also 3 months old- the tank has been set up for 3 months- I downsized from a 90 and transferred live rock/live sand. The put the torte in a month later, so I guess I've had it for about 2 months.

Sorry to hear about your torte- was it an Oregon? (much slower grower than the Cali)

I have good PE during the day and great PE during the night. It looks healthy and is growing- most notably by encrusting on the rock. The electric blue is at the tips of the coralites and also at the encrusting base- it just quickly changes to a dull purple for 70 % of the surface area of the coral.
 
Now I'm a little worried the Phoenix 14Ks i ordered are going to be too blue. My Coralife 10k are yellow. I just wanted whiter blue instead of the yellow I have now. It sort of sucks reading about such subjective things as coloring, then to see the number used as reference really mean nothing.
 
PowermanKW

The Phoenix makes the water really blue until it burns in for about the 1st month- then, the water gets whiter with a blue hue. The radium definitely makes the different colors stand out a bit more than the phoenix, but the phoenix is not a bad bulb.

Dave
 
Thanks. I have a coralife 150w/10K fixture that I am upgrading to 250w with Galaxy ballasts. So I will have no real reference to go by. I have had my tank for only 9 months, so I don't have much experience. I'll just have to go to the new setup and let it run and then have a better idea I want in the future.

I love the brightness and crispness of MH, the yellow of the 10K wears on me though, and my coarls look all washed out and dull even with the 03 actenic CPs. So I'm sure I will get closer to what I want with the Phoenix 14Ks. Even if it goes a little too far to the blue.
 
I personaly like the "bluer" look. I new the Pheonix were going to be blue when I got them. I just wanted to try a new bulb. I like them so far. I still like the XM's too, and would get them again. You just have to ask around and see what bulb will do what you want. This site is incredibly helpful with things like that.
 
Dave, the ballast in the Current USA 150 watt halide units is electronic. M81 is a magnetic HQI ballast. So you really get a better picture looking at the bulbs with one of the electronic ballasts on Sanjays site like the icecap ballast.

And regarding my comments on par and the 400 watt Radium, you got it ... there is no 150 watt halide that will come close in par to the 400 watt radium and provide the bluer color. But there isnt any 150 watt halide that will provide that much par even in the lower K 150 watt halides.

I wouldnt say that the Radium closely approaches the spectrum of the sun. It isnt a full spectrum lamp when compared to the lower K halides. It may create a look to the tank that is more representative of what it looks like on the reef but I guess that would depend at what depth. Im not saying that the Radium will work better than the Phoenix in terms of your corals coloration. Im just saying that since you bought the bulb and the Phoenix wasnt doing what you wanted, you may as well give the Radium a chance to see how things work out. They are good lamps and well regarded. They have pretty decent par for their spectral output FOR a 150 watt halide but I dont know if the par is higher than the Phoenix. Again, only some time will tell if they help you get the results you are looking for.
 
DarG,

Thanks.

One more question-

Must I replace the 150W's as often as the Radium 400W? I've heard that the single ended ones run on "overdrive" and so need to be replaced every 6-7 months.

Dave
 
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