Mike's 140 Cubish Build

[miwoodar]

Thanks for the offer. I picked some up at HD last night. I didn't end up using it though. After making a quick practice run, I was happy with the way it looked directly out of the syringe so I went ahead and ran the beads without the tape. It oozed in nicely and formed a good line.

Cherry has been decided but exactly how we're going to use it hasn't. We initially wanted solid but now we're talking about possibly using a cherry covered ply. I like the ply idea because it's easier to work with - I can easily make what ever dimensions I want and it won't have swelling and/or contraction problems later. I'm meeting with a friend's dad this Sunday to mull over these ideas. He's a retired cabinet maker so I'm looking forward to what he has to say. Do you have any advice either way?

How did you like working with Cherry? Did you have it planed at the supply shop or did you do it yourself? Please post pics if you have any handy.

 

[miwoodar]

The first hurdle will be structural:
My house was built in 1996 using chip board joists (I think they are 10"). Normally I would tell people not to worry about putting a 140 gallon tank on a floor like this. The cube shape changes things though. I'll end up with ~2000lbs on two joists. I'm not too comfortable about this. It will be about a foot away from a foundation wall though. Should I worry? Options I've considered so far:

1) Do nothing and let the floor sag a little.
2) Add Joists: Pull down the drop ceiling below the tank and install another joist or two. This was my first intention but with the way the ceiling was hung, it looks like I'll need to remove the better part of a 15x40 grid to get the joists up above it. I've never worked with a drop ceiling though, maybe I could just splice into the rails and mend it afterwards?
3) Vertical supports under the tank: Add a vertical support below the tank. If I were single...a stripper pole would be perfect.:lol: :lol: :lol: . Actually, we want to use the room for games and such some day and we hope to put a ping pong table right below the tank so a vertical support would get in the way.
4) Haven't come up with a good fourth option yet - pondered the idea of not pulling down the drop ceiling and adding a series of spliced together shorter joists screwed into the existing joists.

 

[jpndave]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11786564#post11786564 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
Thanks for the offer. I picked some up at HD last night. I didn't end up using it though. After making a quick practice run, I was happy with the way it looked directly out of the syringe so I went ahead and ran the beads without the tape. It oozed in nicely and formed a good line.

Cherry has been decided but exactly how we're going to use it hasn't. We initially wanted solid but now we're talking about possibly using a cherry covered ply. I like the ply idea because it's easier to work with - I can easily make what ever dimensions I want and it won't have swelling and/or contraction problems later. I'm meeting with a friend's dad this Sunday to mull over these ideas. He's a retired cabinet maker so I'm looking forward to what he has to say. Do you have any advice either way?

How did you like working with Cherry? Did you have it planed at the supply shop or did you do it yourself? Please post pics if you have any handy.

I am a contractor and have a woodshop to build cabinets. I have done the full homes (hence the structural knowlege) but have been moving towards the cabinets lately.
I would recommend the solid cherry. Cherry is an absolute dream to work with. My favorite wood (other than english walnut). I would be extremely worried about the glue delaminating on the ply if you don't get an exterior rated ply. Solid may swell a bit but it won't come apart. MDF core would be even worse than the ply. All this is assuming you plan to have a sump and water in the bottom of the cabinet. If it is dry, you could use whatever. I have a finish that I use that is extremely water proof. That helps. If you do style and rail panels they will allow for the expansion/contraction of the wood.
My stand has no structural stand, just the cherry. I designed it that way but it is also only 36 gallons. I will do structure on the 180 that is in the works. I have been helping a friend build a stand for his 125. We used microlams for it and has turned out really nice so far. I will be spraying it in the next day or so.
I'll try and get some pics of both stands. Mine is not finished so I am embarrased to post pics of some of the temporary fixes I have going.
I am in UT BTW. Your neighbor club to the west. Are you in Denver proper? I have family over there.
I have a thread here of my tank:
http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23310

 

[maroun.c]

Looking good.
Am at the start of an upgrade to a 140 or 150. was considering a steel stand as with the amount of water I always spill in maintenance I'm sure I would mess up a wood stand in a couple of months...
Can you advise which paint should be used for the steel stand to ensure it lasts more?
any specific reasons for you to go with steel instead of wood other than that it takes a bit less space?

 

[jpndave]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11786655#post11786655 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
The first hurdle will be structural:
My house was built in 1996 using chip board joists (I think they are 10"). Normally I would tell people not to worry about putting a 140 gallon tank on a floor like this. The cube shape changes things though. I'll end up with ~2000lbs on two joists. I'm not too comfortable about this. It will be about a foot away from a foundation wall though. Should I worry? Options I've considered so far:

1) Do nothing and let the floor sag a little.
2) Add Joists: Pull down the drop ceiling below the tank and install another joist or two. This was my first intention but with the way the ceiling was hung, it looks like I'll need to remove the better part of a 15x40 grid to get the joists up above it. I've never worked with a drop ceiling though, maybe I could just splice into the rails and mend it afterwards?
3) Vertical supports under the tank: Add a vertical support below the tank. If I were single...a stripper pole would be perfect.:lol: :lol: :lol: . Actually, we want to use the room for games and such some day and we hope to put a ping pong table right below the tank so a vertical support would get in the way.
4) Haven't come up with a good fourth option yet - pondered the idea of not pulling down the drop ceiling and adding a series of spliced together shorter joists screwed into the existing joists.

By "chip board joists" do you mean an engineered "I" beam? If you can get the brand name, size (height and width of the top and bottom of the "I" (or a series #), span, and the spacing of the joists (center to center - should be 12, 16, 19.2 or 24") I can tell you exactly what they are rated to hold. The engineered "I" joists are actually stronger than a comparable solid 2X joist. They are the better way to build.

DO NOT use screws if you decide to try and laminate the joists. There are several approved "fixes" for the I joists and I promise that isn't one of them. Screws have good pull out strength but they have horrible sheer strength. You will want to nail it together, not screws. If you can get me the above info, I can help with the reinforcement.

 

[jpndave]

BTW, I too used Acrylics thread/advice to build my tank. I really appreciate his help. I had the sam micro bubble problem. I even tried adding acetic acid to the WO4 to slow things down and eliminate them. I did multiple practice pieces and finally just built the tank. It looks good but I still see the small micro bubbles. No one else notices (many can't see them even after I point the out) but they are there and they bother me. I will use Acrylics' recommended brand of acrylic on the 180 and hopefully that will fix the problem. I don't know what else it could be.
Sorry if I am derailing your thread here. Let me know if you'd rather not have the posts.

 

[miwoodar]

jpndave -
Yes, engineered I-beam. I'll get the specs and snap a shot.

Regarding the cherry, it would really bite to make it out of ply and have it fall apart due to water intrusion. The price of making it out of solid cherry seems comparable anyways. I really need to do a good, scaled design in google sketch up so I can figure out what widths I'm going to want to use.

---edit: I wouldn't consider it a derailment. I would like to get better at acrylic work. I'm pretty much out of stuff to make right now but I want to do more so I'll need to conjure up some more projects.

Nice start to your 30 BTW. You guys have a nice web site!

I'm in Highlands Ranch.
---

maroun.c -
Thanks. I've always used wood in the past for my stands. I have to accomodate a 36x16x15 sump, 10x10x26 top off tank, an external pump, two MH ballasts, a 15x12x8 battery backup, and I would like to squeeze in the frag tank shown above if possible. To my understanding, the best option for protecting the steel would be powder coating. It would be nice but I am looking into cheaper routes. Right now I'm pondering either an epoxy paint (which I already have) or a spray plastic of some kind. I need to do a little more research into these options...

 

[miwoodar]

Here are some pics of the floor beneath the new tank location...my 65 sits on the same joists directly across the room from where the 140 will be set up. The 65 will be removed just after the 140 is full. If I jump up and down in the center of the room, I can make small waves in the 65 and visually see the stand sway a little.

These are 9.5" tall and span 14.5' between the foundation wall to the steel beam that runs across the center of the basement.

It reads: Silent Floor TJI / 15DF on the side and NER119 NER200 FHA SEB 689 on the bottom.

This would be right below the front edge of the tank (I'm guessing a largish tank in this location never crossed the minds of the construction crew that put up the drop ceiling):

Here is the flooring material that lays on top of the joists. Above that, on the main level where the tank will be, hardwood flooring runs perpendicular to the joists.

Here is a shot of the opening below the tank. I placed a 37" board across the span to show the alignment of the tank sides. The duct will come right up underneath the stand. I plan on keeping it open in the summer, closed in the winter.

 

[jpndave]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11787770#post11787770 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
Here are some pics of the floor beneath the new tank location...my 65 sits on the same joists directly across the room from where the 140 will be set up. The 65 will be removed just after the 140 is full. If I jump up and down in the center of the room, I can make small waves in the 65 and visually see the stand sway a little.

These are 9.5" tall and span 14.5' between the foundation wall to the steel beam that runs across the center of the basement.

It reads: Silent Floor TJI / 15DF on the side and NER119 NER200 FHA SEB 689 on the bottom.

Ok, here goes. That is a good brand. They are what I use. If I remember correctly, the 15 was the narrowest (weakest) and the standard at that time. I typically use the 11 7/8 joist because it is only a little bit more (pennies per foot) and substantially stronger. That joist you have is fine though and stronger than a 2x10. How much space is between the joists? The lower and upper part should be 1 3/4 wide (again, if memory serves me correctly) they renamed/changed the joists a few years ago. Those are now the 110 seriesI have the span charts for the current version of that joist. I think I still have the software to spec those somewhere and if you can give me all the dimensions, I can put a point load in where your tank is and see what solution it spits out.
As far as the deflection on your floor when you jump on it, that is normal. The best thing you could do for that is to get rid of that suspended ceiling (or remove it then put it back) and sheetrock the underside of the floor. That adds a significant amount of rigidity to the floor. You could also add strips of wood in several places attached to the bottom of every joist to stiffing them. The strips would help but not as much as the sheetrock (or other sheeting).

 

[jpndave]

Here is a link to the specs of the current version. Yours are probably comparable to the 110 (if they are 1 3/4" wide).

http://ilevel.com/literature/TJ-4000.pdf

 

[spleify]

Mike, what type of epoxy do you have? It might be ok, depending on what kind it is. Like we talked about earlier, powder coating rocks, but can get pricey.
If you have the luxury of some where to paint it,(automotive paint, urethane) this is also a great way to protect, so long as it is preped and painted properly. Let me know what kind of epoxy you have and we'll go from there. I would be more than willing to come over and help prep and paint it, in trade for some of your knew found knoledge in acrylic, and helping me build my new sump.

I may have my stand and tank done buy this weekend, so the race is on......

 

[Clown-N-Around]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11787018#post11787018 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
To my understanding, the best option for protecting the steel would be powder coating. It would be nice but I am looking into cheaper routes. Right now I'm pondering either an epoxy paint (which I already have) or a spray plastic of some kind. I need to do a little more research into these options... [/B]

Ben coated the stand for Big Bertha with truck bed liner. His reasoning is that it is more resistant to chips/scratches than powder coat. I think that is what I will use for my 375. Guess I better start taking pictures when it arrives this weekend so I can start my own one of these threads

 

[miwoodar]

Leif - I might take you up on the offer. I'm certainly no painting expert. Now I just need to dig the can out of the stack and see what it is. I'ld be happy to help out with your sump!


Christina - Did you buy the 375 from the RMRC forum? The bed liner option rocks.

 

[miwoodar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11787936#post11787936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jpndave

You could also add strips of wood in several places attached to the bottom of every joist to stiffing them.

jpndave - thanks for the info. The edges are 1 3/4" wide. ^^^This sounds like a good option for my situation. I have been looking through the manual you linked but can't seem to find any specs on what to use and what to fasten with. Just to throw out an idea, could I just attach 1x4's with 8d nails? The goal is just to attach something that could transmit the deflection to the adjacent joists, right?

 

[jpndave]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11794778#post11794778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
jpndave - thanks for the info. The edges are 1 3/4" wide. ^^^This sounds like a good option for my situation. I have been looking through the manual you linked but can't seem to find any specs on what to use and what to fasten with. Just to throw out an idea, could I just attach 1x4's with 8d nails? The goal is just to attach something that could transmit the deflection to the adjacent joists, right?

Yes, trying to minimize deflection side to side. The 1x4 and 8d should work. I would do several rows. That will help with your "springy" floor above but not much for the load from the tank. My recommendation would be to do the load calculations. I would hate to have the floor fail.

However, without doing the calculations, you can reinforce the I joists with the bracing shown on the bottom right of page 8 in the Ijoist link above. The best thing would probably be to add more I joists but that is nearly impossible in existing finished space.

If you want to do the calculations, let me know. We would need a little bit more information.

 

[doog]

nice build eveything yourselfmakesit so much better

 

[miwoodar]

I would be curious to see the results of the calcs. Is it just a matter of plugging in a handful of numbers or is is something more involved?

I think you are talking about the web stiffener attachments (image W). I would just go to HD and look for OSB that met the standards, cut it into strips, then add it to the gaps with the face grain vertical. I could probably finagle some longer pieces up above the drop ceiling if I temporarily cut the nearest hanging wires. If I had to guess, I might be able to get full 8' lengths up there.

 

[jpndave]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11795512#post11795512 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
I would be curious to see the results of the calcs. Is it just a matter of plugging in a handful of numbers or is is something more involved?

I think you are talking about the web stiffener attachments (image W). I would just go to HD and look for OSB that met the standards, cut it into strips, then add it to the gaps with the face grain vertical. I could probably finagle some longer pieces up above the drop ceiling if I temporarily cut the nearest hanging wires. If I had to guess, I might be able to get full 8' lengths up there.

Yes, just plug in the numbers. The solution may not be that simple however. I don't have the program here. I thought I did but it is the TJbeam. I'm going to have the rep send it to me. I can have them run it at my supplier. I need to go in there sometime in the next day or so anyway. How quickly are you going to be ready to fill it up? It would be much easier to brace before you add any weight above, better too. In addition to what you have posted, I need exact span between supports, width supported on each end, center to center on the joists. also, what is on either side of the supports as that can impact what they are carrying. And, the location and weight of the point load (tank). It might help to draw a quick sketch and we can go from there.

I have used OSB in the past but that appears to spec plywood with the face grain verticle. OSB has a strength axis also (so does sheetrock btw), plywood sort of depending on layers. Longer lengths would be better. I am going to ask them on that, I'm curious anyway.

The 1x4 bracing would look similar to the red temporary bracing in the picture, but below the joist. Again, longer would be better.

 

[miwoodar]

Here's the layout of our basement (the tanks are actually on the main level). The 65 will be taken down as the 140 goes up. Nothing else with a significant weight rests on the same span. The joists are mostly 19" OC.

These could be nit picked up and down a few hundred pounds but the ball park of 2K lbs should be pretty close. The 65 is 1150 lbs.

 

[Charlie Davidson]

:thumbsup: