Misleading Behavior of On-Line Fish Vendors

[Stuart60611]

Most on-line vendors provide minimum tank sizes for the fish that they sell which often is grossly undersized to such a dramatic degree that the fish they sell could not be housed in such a volume for any substantial portion of the fishs' life span or full adult size. I have decided to start this thread to challenge this behavior which I find morally offensive, misleading, and which many spend countless posts here on RC attempting to correct. I really think that those of us who consider ourselves responsible hobbyists need to get our act together on actually calling the on-line retailers out on this and bringing this matter to their attention because I think such behavior can be considered a deceptive business practice. I have no concerns about labeling this behavior in this fashion because as a practicing attorney who engages in litigating claims involving deceptive business practices and defamation for nearly 20 years I am confident that I am on safe ground and not commiting any tort in doing so.

For example,the purportedly of what many consider to be the most reputable on-line retailer, Live Aquaria (to which I am a regular customer), certainly is not shy about posting a lot of rhetoric on its website about how the company takes such great care in providing healthy livestock to its customers while at the same time providing incomplete information which often misleads many inexperienced hobbyists into purchasing fish which are clearly grossly inappropriate for the tank size minimally suggested.

Many on-line vendors will attempt to justify this conduct under the guise that minimum tank sizes they suggest only represents what is appropriate for juvenile fish. However, no where on these websites are the minimum tank size recommendations qualified in this fashion. Moreover, no where on these websites is appropriate minimum tank size information for the full grown adult fish they sell suggested.

People here on RC I have to believe account for a big chuck of revenue for these on-line vendors. People here should become vocal on this issue and let these vendors know who we give so much business that we will no longer tolerate this behavior. Not only does this behavior cause fish to be housed in inappropriate tanks which often compromise the health of the fish, but this behavior often results in new hobbyists having problems sustaining their systems, compromise the health of their other fish, and results in the hobbyist being greatly inconvenienced, suffer a financial loss or sadness by having to re-home their pets. This is unacceptable.

 

[JHemdal]

Stuart,

I think you are overstating the problem. That the vendors offer any husbandry information at all is a step in the right direction - the customer still carries the ENTIRE burden of making the proper choice in their fish purchases. With resources like RC, and the many books on the subject, there is simply no excuse for home aquarists making poor choices. To expect the vendor to be as careful and conservative as you apparently are is asking too much.

Then, as we all know, tank size for fish is very subjective and prone to anthropomorphizing. I once tried to calculate the true density of marine life in the oceans of world and it came out to be something like one 3" clownfish in a 20,000 gallon tank. Certainly we ALL crowd out tanks beyond that point!

I did a study that compared the adult size of fish in aquariums to that listed on Fishbase (an often used reference). I found that in one group of adult fish, on average, they only reached 66% of the Fishbase maximum size. Reasons for this include captive stunting, that the Fishbase size is for the RECORD sized fish, not the normal adult size. This leads to people reading that fish 'X' grows to 100cm, when it may only reach 66cm. I myself use 80% of the Fishbase maximum, just for a bit of a safety buffer.

Even knowing the proper adult size of a species of fish doesn't tell you enough. You still need to "know" how much room the fish needs. Many people use fish length to tank volume - this can never work, as the length increases linearly, the volume goes up by the cube, making the comparison meaningless. In another study, I ended up using the length + width of the open area of the aquarium, and compare that to the length of the fish. It is still subjective to some degree, but it works. The formula is here:

The basic equation reads open water tank length + open water tank width/maximum fish length. This result is then expressed as a ratio then compared to a data set for fish from currently properly operating aquariums (N=50). For each of these three body styles, an absolute minimum and a preferred minimum ratio was determined:

Sedentary fish: Absolute minimum ratio 1:3.5; Preferred minimum ratio 1:5.

Maneuverable swimmers: Absolute minimum ratio 1:5: Preferred minimum ratio 1:7.

Active swimmers: Absolute minimum ratio 1:6; Preferred minimum ratio 1:8.




Jay Hemdal

 

[jeff@zina.com]

I'm just amazed they post minimum tank sizes at all. The LFS doesn't often try to tell me a fish is wrong for my tank, and the tanks there certainly aren't big enough for the fish in them.

Jeff

 

[ackee]

To expect complete honesty and candor from almost any variety of vendor is naive and gullible. On line fish vendors, subject to almost no rules or regulations, are among the more unscrupulous. Relevant maintenance parameters will always be given in a manner that best encourages sales, though some of the more prominent sellers are careful to maintain some level of credibility. I've never bought any fish online, and probably never will, but I frequently look at the sites, just to see what's new and interesting. At times I've been startled at the misinformation given regarding space requirements, among other things.

There is a big difference between maintaing a comfortable and low stress environment for a fish, and simply keeping it alive. There is something sordid and dishonest about offering fish for sale that grow to very large sizes and which are active swimmers while listing acceptable aquarium size parameters that apply only to juvenile specimens. Sometimes these minimum aquarium sizes are at best marginal, but only if the fish in question will be the only fish in the tank. This is almost never the case.

I assume aquarists are interested in maintaining healthy and comfortable fish. Crowding several oversized fish in an aquarium too small for them may be technically possible, but, in my view, cruel and indecent. Doing this sort of thing is, of course, in the best financial interests of fish sellers and support service providers of every kind. "My fish all died!" "Can I fit one more fish in my aquarium?"

Sure you can. And if they die, and you buy new ones to replace them, along with various magic medicines and nonsense nostrums, so much the better.

 

[Stuart60611]

Stuart,

I think you are overstating the problem. That the vendors offer any husbandry information at all is a step in the right direction - the customer still carries the ENTIRE burden of making the proper choice in their fish purchases.

Jay Hemdal

Jay:

I respectfully disagree with this and do not believe I am overstating the problem at all. I can recall countless incidents here where new hobbyists post their stocking selections and ask for peoples' opinions about their choices. More experienced hobbyists then step in and advise the poster that their choices are inappropriate for their tank size. The poster then rejects such advice because a reptuable vendor, like Live Aquaria, who has been in the fish selling business for many years and sells millions of dollars of fish per year indicates that the poster's tank meets the minimum requirements. The poster often feels that these hobbyists on a message forum are not credible when compared to the vendor and therefore elect to follow the vendor's suggestion. How can you hold a brand new hobbyist culpable for relying on information presented by such a prominent company who is a professoinal in the fish business as opposed to information provided by mere fellow hobbyists? If a heating company tells you the furnace that it is selling you is sufficiently sized for your home, should you be blameworthy for believing the heating company and not researching the furnace yourself? Most people are not knowlegeable about heating and do not understand how furnaces work and even what to research. Therefore. most people rely upon the professional they choose to sell them a furnace to guide them through the process and provide them with accurate information upon which to make purchase decissions.

I'm just amazed they post minimum tank sizes at all. The LFS doesn't often try to tell me a fish is wrong for my tank, and the tanks there certainly aren't big enough for the fish in them.

Jeff

Jeff:

I agree that the on-line vendor has no obligation to post minimum tank sizes at all. However, when they choose to do so, I think it is fair that they should post something that remotely measures up to reality, particularlly when the on-line vendor knows many inexperienced hobbyists will be relying on this information unfortunately often to their and their animal's detriments.

To expect complete honesty and candor from almost any variety of vendor is naive and gullible.

Well, I certainly appreciate the maxim caveat emptor (buyer beware), but I do not think it is at all unreasonable for any consumer to expect reasonable accuracy and honesty in connection with information the vendor provides to the consumer, partcularly when the vendor knows that the consumer will be chiefly relying upon such information when making their purchase decission. Indeed, there are many reported cases and statues in many states accross the U.S. which hold so.

 

[Drez]

I'm just amazed they post minimum tank sizes at all. The LFS doesn't often try to tell me a fish is wrong for my tank, and the tanks there certainly aren't big enough for the fish in them.

Jeff

Agreed. Early int he hobby I came home with a Foxface recommended for my 25 gallon. I brought him back rather angry. Since then I research first but at least online vendors are providing some of this info.

I think a large part of the problem is the consumer. Some consumers will see a min 50gallon and decide they can push it and go with 40 or even 30...the MIN should be just that, bare min with otherwise ideal situations (i.e. lots of space and low stocking etc.) Too many consider the MIN to be the ideal. Perhaps vendors should list things like min 50, ideally 75+ to convey that message.

 

[JHemdal]

Stuart,

Obviously you disagree, or I wouldn't have disagreed with you first (grin). Your furnace analogy does not hold up: many furnace "technicians" are actually on commission - they will sell you what earns them the biggest pay check - would you buy a furnace without at least one other competative bid? I had one company tell me that I needed a new furnace, and another fixed the one I had for $200.

Live Aquaria is likewise not a good example to support your statements - have you met Kevin Kohen? He is very knowledgable, and works hard behind the scenes to supply people with good quality fish. They offer pretty good advice - if the home aquarist doesn't bother to get "a second opinion", and refine that basic information for their own application, then they are at fault.

I know very well that there are many "bad actors" out there in the mailorder biz - but Live Aquaria isn't one of them.

What about the home aquarist who is TOLD one thing, and then does something contrary? Time and time again, I try to bail out aquarists battling an epizootic because they didn't quarantine their animals - even though they know they should have. Then there is the customer who tells you - "I know how big that fish will get, but I'm going to get a bigger tank" - even though that is a pipedream.

I still maintain that much of your outrage is because you have a different "line in the sand" in regards to your primary issue - the swimming space needs of fish. That doesn't make you right or wrong, nor they - it is a subjective call on both sides.


Jay

 

[ahud]

I have to agree with Stuart,

When vendors suggest tank sizes they should be accurate or they should not post them at all. No information is much better than false information.

 

[Stuart60611]

Jay, I guess we can agree to disagree. I have no doubt that Live Aquaria is a reputable company and that its principles are good people who are well-intended in providing healthy fish for hobbyists. However, that really has nothing to do with the issue of Live Aquaria publishing minimum tank size suggestions for the fish they sell in a highly incomplete and misleading way which has caused many innocent and inexperienced hobbyists to purchase fish which are grossly inappropriate for their systems, thereby leaving these often very inexperienced hobbyists to deal with the aftermath which they are usually very ill equiped to handle.

I do not quarrel with your general contention that hobbyists regularly do things contrary to what would be considered good husbandry, etc. and are responsible for many of their own problems. However, that has nothing to do with what a professional on-line fish vendor should provide in terms of the accuracy of the information it publishes.

As Ahud stated, I disagree with you that the on-line vendors' attempt to provide tank size recommendations for the fish they sell, however inaccurate or incomplete, is a step in the right direction because it is at least an attempt to provide some husbandry information to hobbyists. Rather, it would be much better if the on-line vendors either provided complete and accurate information on suggested tank sizes or no such information at all because at least then in the abscence of information the consumer would have to seek out the information and not feel compeled to follow the vendors' suggestions because of the vendors' many years of professional experience.

Your comment about Kevin Kohen really reinforces this point. He and those at Live Aquaria have a very high level of credability in the hobby, and therefore, it can be very difficult to convince inexperienced hobbyists that the minimum tank size information Live Aquaria publishes is incomplete or inaccurate.

 

[Drez]

I have to agree with Stuart,

When vendors suggest tank sizes they should be accurate or they should not post them at all. No information is much better than false information.

Not sure I agree. Not everything is a matter of consensus in this hobby. There are no hard set rules and with time many of those rules change. 20 years ago nano and pico tanks were unheard of, now they're common place for example.

The Yellow Tang is the most famous argument in husbandry no-nos and its still not decided. I'm sure we can all agree they don't fit in a 30, but what about a 50? What about a 55 Long (48X12X19) vs a 65 tall (36X18X24), I'd rather have him in the smaller tank here than the larger. Perhaps neither and 75+ is more ideal.

The hobbyist needs to take at least some of the onus here and make an informed choice. Will they always do this? Of course not but we can't demonize the online vendor for not always being conservative this even if they could perhaps do a better job (ie. Min vs ideal...)

 

[Stuart60611]

The hobbyist needs to take at least some of the onus here and make an informed choice. Will they always do this? Of course not but we can't demonize the online vendor for not always being conservative this even if they could perhaps do a better job (ie. Min vs ideal...)

I agree that even inexperienced hobbyists have to take some responsibility for making appropriate stocking decissions, and their failure to make the effort to do so can be considered wrong. However, as the saying goes, two wrongs do not make a right. The hobbyists' failure to properly verify the completeness or accuracy of the information that on-line vendors publish concerning minimum tank sizes for the fish they sell is not tantamount to giving on-line vendors a free pass to publish incomplete or inaccurate information on the subject.

There is an important distinction here. Hobbyists are people who keep fish for pleasure. On-line vendors keep and sell fish professionally for profit. I do not think it is fair to judge an amateur and a professional under the same standard in this context.

 

[DoubleM 10]

I will agree with Jay on this one. Reason being that being a newbie currently i have not only checked stores like LA. i have check all the forums i can and any other stores i can find online and also check the LFS to see if all the stories matc.

Now as for a real world example. i work in the car industry. people all the time come in looking at used cars and suck. most people know how the car works. i would say buying a fish with only taking one opinion into concideration is like looking at many used cars but basing the decision on that fist test drive only. you never know what other people have to say about specific car.

99.9% of the people that come in here do extencive research on vehicle before they buy a car

IMO the fish hoby is the same thing.

1 you see a fish you like

2 you do some research on the fish (size, filtration, diet, etc)

3 check the compatabilty with animals in the disired home(or future plans for it, etc)

4 then you find a way to purchase the fish

it really is that simple. once again this is all IMO. i had no intentions on offending anyone just voicing my opinion. thank you respectfully

 

[Stuart60611]

I will agree with Jay on this one. Reason being that being a newbie currently i have not only checked stores like LA. i have check all the forums i can and any other stores i can find online and also check the LFS to see if all the stories matc.

Now as for a real world example. i work in the car industry. people all the time come in looking at used cars and suck. most people know how the car works. i would say buying a fish with only taking one opinion into concideration is like looking at many used cars but basing the decision on that fist test drive only. you never know what other people have to say about specific car.

99.9% of the people that come in here do extencive research on vehicle before they buy a car

IMO the fish hoby is the same thing.

1 you see a fish you like

2 you do some research on the fish (size, filtration, diet, etc)

3 check the compatabilty with animals in the disired home(or future plans for it, etc)

4 then you find a way to purchase the fish

it really is that simple. once again this is all IMO. i had no intentions on offending anyone just voicing my opinion. thank you respectfully

Certainly no offense taken here, and welcome to the discussion. But since we are challenging analogies today:hmm5:, I do not think your relatively new hobbyist looks at purchasing fish for his/her fish tank as decission nearly as involved as purchasing a car, used or otherwise. I think if you asked your average person on the street virtually all would feel the need to do some involved research before purchasing a car, but many would not even consider that the decission of which fish to purchase for a fish tank is an involved process. My point is many of these folks would and have not hessitated to rely on the minimum tank requirements suggested from large and reputable on-line vendors. Sure, they bare some responsiblity for foolishly doing so, but I think the on-line vendor bears much more.

My outrage over this is driven in part by my belief that this issue has largely contributed to many inappropriate fish purchases combined with my strong hunch that this is not inadvertant but instead deliberately calculated to boost sales at often the expense of hobbyists and the animals sold. I just have trouble believing that a company of Live Aquaria's caliber with a vast amount of knowledge concerning keeping fish really believes it appropriate to keep some of the fish they sell in their minmum tank size suggestions or even in tanks 50%-100% larger than what is suggested for some species. This is in my opinion also adds to the difficulties associated with the long term sustainability of the hobby. It contributes to unnecessary fish losses and further damages the public perception of the hobby by promoting keeping fish in unduly crampt and inappropriate conditions.

 

[DoubleM 10]

Well i can see what you are saying dont get me wrong, and i respectfully disagree

In the car anoalogy the comparison is close to same concept is what im saying.

new people in the hobby are like the people who buy the high end car and dont put the premium gas in the car cause they dont understand why.

new people do the same thing. They see a small fish at the store and think they would be able to be able to house them with a small tank cause they dont understand why.

myself being new to the hobby. it took me a long time to grasp the fact their are reasons why things are rated or people say certain things for a reason. took me a long time to understand that. Now again we all know that in this hobby no 2 stories are alike. there are very few rules of thumb aside from perameters in a tank. No matter how much the people who know the hobby try to tell the new people what works and what doesnt and why. there is still gonna be people who will do what they feel is correct cause the understand why they think its correct.

And as for the calculated numbers on the online stores i think we would have to understand how they found thier numbers in the first place. Sounds to me like they use a general rule of thumb when finding an appropriate size tank for the fish.

There have been many times when i look on multiple websites and find all different stoies and requirments for all the fish i have(currently have 9). some were spot on with others but most were off by some amount.

Im sure if the tank had only that fish in the tank it would not have an issue.

Just out of curiosity how are people supposed to determine the size tank? the only places that say how big of a tank the animal needs are the places like LA and your local fish store.

When you ask people on a forum like this where do the people who respond get their numbers?

I can understand that people have been doing this a lot longer than me and know more about the hobby, but the information had to have come from somewhere.

and thank you for respectfully answering my original post.

 

[Stuart60611]

Just out of curiosity how are people supposed to determine the size tank? the only places that say how big of a tank the animal needs are the places like LA and your local fish store.

When you ask people on a forum like this where do the people who respond get their numbers?

I can understand that people have been doing this a lot longer than me and know more about the hobby, but the information had to have come from somewhere.

and thank you for respectfully answering my original post.

Now, I think that is a very good point. I think there is quite a bit of grey area as to what is the minimum tank size for a fish and a host of variables that affect the same. I also think you are absolutely right that no two authoritative sources will always agree on this, and there is often quite a bit of disparity. What I am complaining about is only those minimum suggested tank sizes which clearly are inappropriate other than when the fish is a baby or very young juvenile. In other words, you may not be able to get most people to agree on what is an appropriate minimum tank size for a fish, but you can generally get most people to agree what clearly is not.

For example:

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+36+279&pcatid=279. Could anyone be able to keep this fish, even singlely, in a 50 gallon tank other than as very young juvenile?

As to where I and I assume many others here come up with what we think are appropriate minimum tank sizes, I think most of us base this on a combination of experience and a synthesis of a lot of written material we have read over the years on the subject.

 

[muttley000]

I can see all of the sides presented in this thread. It is my opinion that the burden is on the buyer to do the research, and up to us as consientious consumers to pay who we feel does the best job. I have an extremely hard time only depending on the seller for anything, because they are, well, trying to sell! I use Fishbase and Wet Web Media myself, but if I found a online vendor, or a LFS, that was doing a bang up job at this, I would verify, then reward them with my business. Unfortunalty, as much as we may want it to fall on the vendor, I doubt anyone will ever be doing our research for us.

 

[DoubleM 10]

i can agree on the lionfish cause thats what i house currently(DWARF SPECIES) now i know the fish are not very active. i agree with a "standard" 55 gal tank can NOT house that fish.

I have a gut feeling that the tanks that the get there numbers for the tank size is on a perfectly square tank. see now that would make sence in some cases. but with most of the tanks not being square or even close to that because people want to see the fish. have you called LA and asked them how they came up with there numbers? i think one of us should do that

 

[Stuart60611]

For those of you who doubt the seriousness or pervassiveness of this problem, below is a thread I stumbled upon today here on RC which really illustrates how much these on-line fish vendors are misleading hobbyists. In this thread, the fairly experienced hobbyist is so confused by the misinformation provided by on-line fish vendors concerning minimum tank size suggestions that he is having difficulty even determining whether a fish can be kept in his system. This is a serious problem which I strongly suspect is the primary cause for many il advised fish purchases.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1933499

 

[zygote2k]

you cannot protect the stupid from the world.
many noobs simply hit a forum for their education in marine life and start buying impulsive items.
they fail to read any books, fail to learn about marine biology, and willfully buy anything the LFS or online vendors care to sell.

back in the day, the LFS wouldn't sell you a marine fish unless your water tested nearly pristine. when we go back to this standard we'll have less uninformed noobs making uninformed purchases. it all starts with a good solid educational background.

 

[spieszak]

If your adamant about this, why not petition LA to provide an area for "users" to provide external links? Maintaining a database of information as large as theirs is a nightmare in itself, and since we have someone on this thread who has claimed interaction with one of the guys over there, you may be able to solicit his help.
It's not LA's job to be the end all of all information, but I would think that they would welcome the opportunity to become that, with a small change like allowing for comments without having to pay for "housing" the information.