Misleading Behavior of On-Line Fish Vendors

[Stuart60611]

It's not LA's job to be the end all of all information.

No, but if Live Aquaria chooses to offer information about minimum tank sizes I do submit that it is Live Aquaria's job and obligation to provide this information accurately. The same holds true with respect to every product sold.

If your adamant about this, why not petition LA[.]

That is pretty much the point of this thread. My hope was to start making noise here since many of us account for so much business for Live Aquaria and simlar companies.

you cannot protect the stupid from the world.

Many people who get duped by the minimum tank size suggestions posted by on-line vendors are not stupid and are well-intended hobbyists who just do not know better. With 7 years post high school education and an excellent accademic record, I think it fair to state that no one would consider me an idiot. However, when I started in this hobby it never crossed my mind not to believe the minimum tank size information provided by reputable vendors, like Live Aquaria. Live Aquaria is considered by many to be one of the most reputable fish vendors in the industry and extremely knowledgeable about how to properly keep fish. They bost considerable rhetoric on their website on how they take such great care in providing very healthy fish for sale. They further provide many articles on a vast array of aquarium husbandry topics, many of which are written by some of the "experts" in the hobby. If you search around the web about Live Aquaria, you will find many postings and comments about how it is such a reputable and well run company. This all together gives many inexperienced but reasonably intellegent hobbyists the understandable impression that Live Aquaria is extremely knowledgeable about keeping marine fish and no cause to challenge their minimum tank size information. As I indicated above, many very intellegent people do not realize that the purchase of fish for a fish tank requires considerable research and that you cannot trust the information of what reputable vendors, like Live Aquaria, provide.

Although you cannot protect the stupid from the world, there is plenty of precident concerning protecting the inexperienced consumer from being misled into making a purchase based on misinformation provided to the consumer from the seller. This concept is nothing novel and in most industries accepted as being obvious. For whatever reason, the on-line fish sales industry has developed a culture which seems to ignore this at least as far as minimum tank size information. Remember, what we are talking about here is not people who do not look into the appropriate tank size for a given fish, but rather, people who obtain this information from what most would consider a highly reputable source and make the mistake of reasonably believing that they can rely on this information being remotely accurate.

 

[ahud]

I agree with Stuart (not trying to be repetitive) in the sense that LA should not post minimum tank sizes if they are not correct, but I do not think online vendors should be responsible.

Going back to the used car example, giving false minimum tank sizes is like giving false information on the used car, you can't lie about millage or even stretch the truth.

Finally, people are going to practice bad husbandry no matter what. When it comes to marine life, and life in general people simply do not care. Some of the fuzzy stuff gets attention, other than that "they are just fish, ect"

Don't get me started on how stupid people are, I'm under the impression that my generation is a lost cause.

 

[Stuart60611]

Going back to the used car example, giving false minimum tank sizes is like giving false information on the used car, you can't lie about millage or even stretch the truth.

Exactly, and I want to emphasize that we are not talking about a grey area here. For example, with respect to the 50 gallon minimum tank for a volitan lionfish provided by Live Aquaria I posted above, I submit that under no circumstance could that fish, even alone, be maintained for any significant period of time in a 50 gallon water volume as an adult. The tank would not even be wide enough to fit the adult fish -- let alone provide the fish room to turn around. How can a purportedly reputable company suggest that this fish can be maintained in this volume? Can there be any doubt that a company of Live Aquaria's caliber knows that it is impossible to maintain this fish as an adult in the suggested volume, but nevertheless, deliberately posts false information for its customers to rely upon suggesting otherwise? Is it ok for a company to deliberately mislead consumers in this way? Does this false information not further damage the reputation of the hobby by encouraging people to keep fish in substandard environments and provide justiication for those who do so under the guise that Live Aquaria condones such behavior? I cannot count the number of times I have indicated to someone that their tank is too small for a given fish, and the person cites Live Aquaria as a basis for demonstrating why I am wrong. Such people often respond to me that Live Aquaria knows a whole lot more about keeping marine fish than I do, and therefore, the person is going to go with the recommendations of the professionals at Live Aquaria over those of a mere fellow hobbyist.

 

[DoubleM 10]

I respectfully disagree.

Well true about the car senario. although people always want what kelly blue book (LA) says for their car!!! Kelly blue book does not buy cars for even the prices the say peoples cars are work. its the dealers(dealers is us) job to be educated enough to know that it is just a guide not actuality.

Lets look at it a different way. when you got yo your electronic store to buy a tv to fit on your wall it is not the stores responcibilty to tell you what tv fits on YOUR wall.
Just as on LA does not hold the respocibility to tell you whats fits in YOUR tank.

You are the owner and opperator ofthe tank. That makes it your responcibilty to make sure whatever goes in the tank is safe and comforable. not LA.

I can see that a large company like LA would "lower" the tank size to make money.]
I dont disagree at all that some of the sizes are way out of line.

At the end of the day it is our job to make sure we can host the fish throughout its life.

We can not hold it over places like LA.

+1 on you cant fix stupid.

Matt

 

[Stuart60611]

I respectfully disagree.

Lets look at it a different way. when you got yo your electronic store to buy a tv to fit on your wall it is not the stores responcibilty to tell you what tv fits on YOUR wall.
Just as on LA does not hold the respocibility to tell you whats fits in YOUR tank

Matt

Matt:

Again not to be repetitive, but I agree that Live Aquaria has no responsibility to give minimum tank size information. But when they choose to do so and paricularly because they are such an influential and respected source of information in the marine fish keeping hobby, they do, in my opinion, bare the responsibility of communicating this information accurately. In your example, no the electronics store does not have to tell you which TV will fit your wall space, but if the electronics store without obligation chooses to do so to induce you to purchase a particular television, then the electronics store is culpable for providing you with inaccurate information.

 

[seahorsedreams]

I agree these online vendors ought to tighten up their descriptions.

LA is a trusted respectable site that also advertises themselves as a source for pet education. Their information based on that claim, therefore, ought to be correct.

But it just makes good business sense to have top notch fish advice. I always direct people away from their descriptions because they are so frequently incorrect. Wouldn't it be "better" to be known as one of the more correct sources of information?

Not saying anything about the quality of their fish, products and customer service.... they are FANTASTIC. But their blaring thumbs down are their attention to detail on the descriptions.

 

[seahorsedreams]

But you know what.... I think they are working on it. They've updated some things that weren't quite correct before.

 

[Stuart60611]

But you know what.... I think they are working on it. They've updated some things that weren't quite correct before.

I sure hope so because at least as far as minimum tank size information, there is quite a bit of ridiculously inaccurate information provided which for a company that considers and promotes itself to the public at large as a leading provider of pet education is inexcuseable.

 

[ahud]

The TV example is not the same, its too basic. Of course you know that 72" tv won't fit the 36" space you have for it.

Stuart has a point with the reputation of LA, people trust them. Although there may be gray areas in stocking LA is more than capable of suggesting reasonable stocking sizes.

 

[Stuart60611]

After reading the below link on Dr. Foster and Smith's commitment to pet education, I am even more angry about this issue. How can this company state the below while at the same time provide the public with the minimum tank size information for some of the fish they sell? I find this very troubling.

PetEducation.com is an important component of the pet education offerings provided to the public by Drs. Foster and Smith pet supplies to help pet owners access veterinary authored or screened information on pet care. Additional information via articles and videos can be found on DrsFosterSmith.com and LiveAquaria.com.
As presently configured, PetEducation.com is non-commercial in nature, meaning there is no "check-out" provided to purchase products or services on this web site. This allows pet owners to access information without always getting a commercial. While products are listed on PetEducation.com, they are listed where it makes sense to help a pet owner with a solution to a problem they are experiencing with their pet. Not all pet products mentioned in PetEducation.com articles are available from DrsFosterSmith.com and LiveAquaria.com.
We hope you access PetEducation.com often to do research and find answers to issues you are facing with your pets.
Read below for more about Drs. Foster and Smith's commitment to pet care education.
In the early 1980s, Dr. Race Foster and Dr. Marty Smith were operating four veterinary clinics in northern Wisconsin, each of which included boarding and grooming facilities.


In their work with pet owners and pet professionals, two things became increasingly clear:

1. People needed a source outside the "doctor's office" where they could purchase quality pet supplies at affordable prices, and
2. Everyone they talked to wanted more information on how to care for their pets

In 1983, Dr. Foster and Dr. Smith sent their first catalog to their customers - a 16-page, black-and-white flier containing a handful of products available in their clinics.
From this humble beginning, the Drs. Foster & Smith catalog has become the nation's leading pet supply catalog, received by millions of pet owners and pet professionals from coast to coast.
While much has changed over the years, the doctors' guiding principles have remained the same: Offer pet owners quality pet products at affordable prices and give them the information they need to provide the best possible care for their pets.

Dedication to Education
Fulfilling their commitment to provide pet owners with trustworthy pet care information, every Drs. Foster & Smith catalog contains up to 30 articles written by the doctors about the health and care of pets.
To this same end, Dr. Foster and Dr. Smith also established and fund the largest and most comprehensive pet information web site on the Internet. Their PetEducation.com web site contains more than 2,500 in-depth articles written by the Drs. Foster & Smith veterinary staff. PetEducation.com has received high ratings and awards of excellence from multiple organizations, and is visited by more than 14,000 pet owners and pet professionals every day from all over the world. Additionally, many major universities utilize the PetEducation.com web site in their teaching and as a resource for student and faculty research.
The doctors' commitment to information also extends to their DrsFosterSmith.com web site. Offering more product information than any other pet site, nearly every product page includes product-specific FAQs, Customer Comments, and even comments from the Drs. Foster & Smith veterinary staff on the particular product you're interested in. And if you need more information, our fully trained Customer Service staff will be happy to help answer any question you may have about a product.

http://www.peteducation.com/general.cfm?static_pagesid=5

Are those who disagree with me suggesting that those who follow the minimum tank size information of such a prominent and authoritative source for pet husbandry information should be blamed for their own foolishness? If I read the above and was an inexperienced hobbyist I certainly would think that Live Aquaria would only provide me with the most accurate minimum tank size information and would not hessitate to rely upon this information without double checking it with other sources.

 

[spieszak]

Exactly, and I want to emphasize that we are not talking about a grey area here. For example, with respect to the 50 gallon minimum tank for a volitan lionfish provided by Live Aquaria I posted above, I submit that under no circumstance could that fish, even alone, be maintained for any significant period of time in a 50 gallon water volume as an adult.

I'm not about to defend LA to no end, but I appreciate them having at least a modicum of information about the product.
My question to you is, have you NOTIFIED LA of this? Did you get a response? Or did you read it, decided that they were nuts, and then just move on.
They have a library of information. Just like your local library. Things get misplaced, mis-categorized and misunderstood. If no one tells the librarian that the somehow all the Shakespeare got moved to the kids section (stretching this example) then there will be a lot of confused kids out there. But, just because they provide the books doesn't mean that they don't make mistakes.

There are lots of different ways we should all be researching, and one source is never enough.. but I disagree with the idea that the stores are all out to just make a sale. (some of them are, that's for sure, but there are a lot of places out there that really care about the animals)

So until someone tells me they notified LA of a blatant error, and that that error wasn't corrected, I think I'm on the side of just advising people to read all information as though any idiot with a keyboard could have posted it (because they could have...see, I just posted this!)

 

[Stuart60611]

I'm not about to defend LA to no end, but I appreciate them having at least a modicum of information about the product.
My question to you is, have you NOTIFIED LA of this? Did you get a response? Or did you read it, decided that they were nuts, and then just move on.
They have a library of information. Just like your local library. Things get misplaced, mis-categorized and misunderstood. If no one tells the librarian that the somehow all the Shakespeare got moved to the kids section (stretching this example) then there will be a lot of confused kids out there. But, just because they provide the books doesn't mean that they don't make mistakes.

There are lots of different ways we should all be researching, and one source is never enough.. but I disagree with the idea that the stores are all out to just make a sale. (some of them are, that's for sure, but there are a lot of places out there that really care about the animals)

So until someone tells me they notified LA of a blatant error, and that that error wasn't corrected, I think I'm on the side of just advising people to read all information as though any idiot with a keyboard could have posted it (because they could have...see, I just posted this!)

The lionfish error is not an issolated situation. Take a look at some other species LA sells, and there are plenty of other similar minimum size tank information posted related to other species which are also grossly inappropriate (see below for some examples). These are not typographical errors, and I do not believe for a minute that those at Live Aquaria were not fully aware of how incorrect their minimum tank size information is for some of the fish they sell at the time this information was publicly posted. After all, they have been a leading pet education resource for over 1 decade. No, I have yet to notify live aquaria about this. I do plan to do so with a link to this thread after the thread is more fully developed. The wrong here is not refusing to correct the misinformation, but the wrong here is to provide this misinformation in the first place for the innocent public to rely upon when they reasonably should know how grossly inaccurate the information is. I would just love to see someone keep an over 5 foot tessalata eel (with all of its girth) in a 180 gallon tank.:thumbdown

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+32+166&pcatid=166

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+32+145&pcatid=145

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+18+411&pcatid=411

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+43+357&pcatid=357

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+43+366&pcatid=366

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+29+133&pcatid=133

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+39+244&pcatid=244

 

[spieszak]

the innocent public to rely upon when they reasonably should know how grossly inaccurate the information is.

The innocent public are why we have the "don't use your hair dryer in the shower" tags.
The informed public gets angry when they have to pull all those damn stickers off.

Just my humble opinion.. and with that I'll leave it alone.

 

[DoubleM 10]

See i agree they could knowingly make the info to better business. that is all but impossible.

As you and i discussed earlier who is respocible for saying whats right and wrong? thats why it will be nest to impossible to prove them wrong. even if we know its wrong. from the ocean to the real world is a HUGE difference to the fish.

The amout of fish is somewhere to the effect of one 3" clown fish to 20000gal. as stated by JAY earlier in this thread. that just proves that no matter what tank we put them in it will be to small.

If we can prove they are doing it knowly then yes you are right.

But how would you go about doing something like that when none of us have any fact on tank sizes that we can base things from?

 

[Stuart60611]

See i agree they could knowingly make the info to better business. that is all but impossible.

As you and i discussed earlier who is respocible for saying whats right and wrong? thats why it will be nest to impossible to prove them wrong. even if we know its wrong. from the ocean to the real world is a HUGE difference to the fish.

The amout of fish is somewhere to the effect of one 3" clown fish to 20000gal. as stated by JAY earlier in this thread. that just proves that no matter what tank we put them in it will be to small.

If we can prove they are doing it knowly then yes you are right.

But how would you go about doing something like that when none of us have any fact on tank sizes that we can base things from?

I am not trying to litigate the issue, although I will confess that I have considered it. As I stated before, there is plenty of grey area as to what is the minimum tank size for a given species and many variables which are different from system to system which materially affect this determination. But as I stated before, although you generally will not be able to get most people to agree what is the minimum tank size for a given species, you can generally get virtually all people to agree what clearly is not. For example, no one would think that any tang could be kept in a 10 gallon aquarium. I certainly feel on solid ground believing that LA knew that much of this information was inaccurate at the time it was made available to the public because of their vast experience in the field and the pervassiveness of this inaccurate information throughout their website. How could a company with such a vast amount of experience and knowledge in aquarium husbandry not know something about basic aquarium husbandry whiich any moderately experienced hobbyist knows?

 

[DoubleM 10]

ok well i just called LA and asked where they get thier information

come to find out Scott W Micheal is one of the leading people on the team of members that does tank requirments for the fish. it looks like he has written a couple books. also the director Kevin K or C not sure has the final say in what gets put out.

Both of the gentleman mentioned have been in the trade for a long time.

it comes down to personal opinion. yes we can all agree that some fish dont belong in such tank. i.e. vol. loins.

i did ask how they came up with that number and they say because the fish is so innactive it does not need a large tank.

o and yes i did bring up the argument that mosst tanks that size are long and narrow. (like mine)

it is possible that the tank requirments or in the IDEAL tank????? meaning a good shape of the tank for the fish specific needs? perfect amout of rock and sand. and only that fish inside.

after reading about all the fish i have none of the fish i have are in tanks to amsll. they are all in much greater tanks. they seem very happy and active.

thats my thought on how and why they are what tey say they are.

 

[nixer]

where is that misleading? its a minimum size not ideal or perfered size.
what you believe to be an ideal size tank doesnt make that correct either.
either way if they didnt put that some pinhead would try to put a parrot fish in a 29 gallon tank

 

[skanderson]

sounds like someone is trolling for a class action suit. whatever happened to the concept of "buyer beware".

 

[Stuart60611]

where is that misleading? its a minimum size not ideal or perfered size.
what you believe to be an ideal size tank doesnt make that correct either.
either way if they didnt put that some pinhead would try to put a parrot fish in a 29 gallon tank

Well, lets take the volitan lionfish example. LA states that the minimum tank size for this fish is 50 gallons. What is misleading about this is I submit that under no circumstances can that fish as an adult, even alone (where most people also have a tankmate or two), be kept in a 50 gallon tank. Indeed, a 50 gallon tank is not even wide enough to fit the adult fish -- let alone provide the adult fish room to even turn around. No where on LA's website does it state that an adult volitan will not even fit in a 50 gallon aquarium. No where LA's website does it provide any guidance for a suitable tank size for an adult volitan. No where on LA's website does it state that the 50 gallon minimum suggested tank size for a volitan is only suitable for a very young juvenile. As such, you as an inexperienced hobbyist go ahead and purchase a volitan from LA for your 50 gallon tank only to find that in 1 year or so you need a much larger tank or have to re-home the fish.

Also, think about the tessalata eel example. This eel is extremely aggressive and gets to be over 5 feet in length and exteremely thick. You go ahead and purchase this eel for your 180 gallon tank suggested as a minimum tank size by LA. A year or so later you discover that the eel is literally banging against the glass to such a degree that you fear the glass may break. How you would you like to try to catch and re-home that monster without loosing a digit or two. I would be extremely angry about being misled into purchasing this eel for my 180 gallon tank.

Remember, the people who get duped by LA's and others' minimum tank size information are generally not those who are very experienced hobbyists, and therefore, they are people who are often ill equiped to deal with having a fish in a system which is way oversized for the system and/or re-homing the fish.

 

[Stuart60611]

sounds like someone is trolling for a class action suit. whatever happened to the concept of "buyer beware".

Caveat emptor or buyer beware certainly has applicability. However, if you take a look at many cases accross the U.S. that discuss this concept what is clear is that buyer beware in no way provides the seller any ability to misrepresent the material attributes of the seller's products. Buyer beware is not tantamount to a license to the seller to mislead the public through the seller's publication of false information about the material attributes of a product calculated to wrongfully induce unsuspecting buyers to make a purchase based on this false information. Many successful claims against sellers have been made pursuant to this idea.

As far as trolling for a class action suit, as I stated above, I have considered bringing one, but I have elected for a variety of reasons not to do so. If I were really interested in pursuing a claim, the last thing I would do would be discuss its nature in such detail on a message board because such discussions could negatively impact the success of the claim. Moreover, discussing the claim publicly in this fashion allows any other attorney to steal my idea and bring their own claim. Rather, if I were going to sue, I would just do so and not have a public discussion about it. I have elected to address this concern through this thread and not through litigation.