MJ pump gone bad and shocked me

[TitansFan]

I posted this in another forum but, I am not getting much response. I wanted to see if maybe anyone here knew anything.

Three days ago I noticed my modded MJ 1200 had quit running. I went to stick my hand in to give the prop a little spin to get it going again. Ouch! I took a nice jolt when I put my hand in. I immediately unplugged the Mj and the shocking feeling is gone. Also kinda wondering why my GFI didn't flip.

I am worried about the fish though. My trigger has not been himself. He swims very little when before he was always all over the tank. My foxface immediately after the event had the "night time" coloring and had all his spines erected. He doesn't swim much now. My puffer just sits on the bottom of the tank. They seem to be eating not as they did in the past though. Could the fish have suffered unseen damage? Has anyone ever had an experience like this before? Do you think they will work it all out? My tank now looks like I don't even have fish in it at all. There is hardly any activity at all.

 

[Pickupman66]

Man do I hope you have a ground probe! I had a pump burn up and meltdown under water, but I unplugged it before retrieving it. I have heard that the sysptoms you describe can cone form stray voltage.

 

[cee]

GFCIs don't trip if there's no path to ground for current. Since there's no metal in our tanks, a lot of current can flow between the hot and neutral w/o a trip. The only thing that protects the tank is the circuit breaker. Now, if you stick your hand in there and make a circuit to ground, it will trip if it exceeds 5 mA or so. Try throwing a running hair dryer in the bathtub, it won't trip the GFCI because modern tubs are plumbed with PVC. We had a power strip at work that was submerged in water on a GFCI and it continued to function and the pump attached to it was still running.

pickupman's right, a ground probe or a chiller (grounded internally) will cause the GFCI to trip.

 

[fishdoc11]

Have you checked ammonia? Lots of times when things shock the tank like that it kills off microfauna on the rocks and in the sand etc... and there is a dieoff. It would be a good idea to start getting water ready regardless if you haven't allready.

 

[Pickupman66]

CEE,

now that you put it to the electrical terms, you are right. the probe will cause the gfci to trip. it gives the electricity an out of the tank. and without it , it is just stray voltage that can cause severe harm to the fish and all inhabitants and give you a shock on your hand.

Man I hate electricity.

 

[rcmike]

Are you sure the GFCI is working correctly? Does the button pop out if you test it? It should have tripped if you got shocked.

 

[TitansFan]

Pickupman66: I don't "feel" anything now that I unplugged the pump. I may pick up a multimeter tomorrow. How could I test for voltage with it? Putting the black end in a plug for ground and just the red probe in the water?

cee: Worst part is I have a ground plug outside in the garage somewhere. I thought I had just read on here a few times that they don't work correctly and are a waste of time.

Chris: The take is BB so that should help. I hadn't even considered ammonia from other die off. Bad thing is a just did a water change earlier in the week. I have the RO machine running now to fill the 50 gallon blue barrel in the garage. Unfortunately, I don't have an ammonia test. It's nothing I have ever worried about really with my skimmers and water changes. Thanks for the idea on a water change.

Michael: Yeah it pops out if I test it. I actually have dripped water into a surge strip before and plugged in a pump. Dumb me not paying attention... It tripped my GFCI that time.

I am correct in that having all my living room plugs on the same looped breaker I only have to have one GFCI installed on the loop? I have also read someone post in other forums that fish don't get shocked as they aren't grounded. Well, after seeing my foxface immediately afterwards I dun believe them.

 

[drfdisk]

I may be wrong but a tank of water full of positively charged electrons will want to transfer them to the nearest ground. I am sure the air around your lights being humid and dense might have been a source of ground for the water completing a weak circuit. Not enough amps to trip a GFI.

It seems to me that a ground probe would cause an even stronger circuit to be completed. The water itself is grounded directly but the current still has to pass through the water to make ground. Depending on where the source of charge is located it might have to pass from one side of the tank to the other if the GFI didnt trip. Any fish between the source and ground makes for a really good conductor, especially in salt water. The inhabitants might not be grounded directly in either instance but I would think they are still part of a completed circuit and passing electrons through their body. Maybe even becoming like a natural capacitor. :lol: Im not an electrical engineer but that would be my guess.

I would say your fish would be ok if they survived the immediate shock. Just sick for a day or two from having thier spinal cords lit up like Vegas. :eek1: I might take this as a lesson for my tank to not use a probe if all your fish survive.

 

[NeveSSL]

Electrons are negative.

(sorry... I'm an electronics minor! hehe )

You are right about the ground probe, but thats the purpose.

When he stuck his hand in, it didn't trip it because there wasn't enough current. Had the ground probe been in, enough current would have passed and the GFCI would have VERY quickly broke the circuit. Thats the purpose!

Also, I don't really know if electricity would pass through the fish or not... not directly anyways because electricity always takes the path of least resistance... I would be interested to know how it does affect them, though.

Hope all of your fish are ok!

This thread reminds me I need to look up some info on ground probes!

Brandon

 

[tmcghee]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9797578#post9797578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TitansFan
I am correct in that having all my living room plugs on the same looped breaker I only have to have one GFCI installed on the loop?

This is possible only if the GFCI receptacle is the first in the loop. In other words, the run from your breaker panel must come to the GFCI first (line) and then out to the other receptacles in the loop (load) for the others to be protected.

Terry

 

[streetracinsrt]

I would think that the fish could be shocked hasnt anyone seen the redneck fishing with the old wind up phones you put the end in the water then crank it creating an electric current that shocks all the fish and makes them float to the top.

 

[crumbletop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9797578#post9797578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TitansFan
I am correct in that having all my living room plugs on the same looped breaker I only have to have one GFCI installed on the loop?

Only if it is wired with the other outlets downstream, and wired in series with the other outlets. If you wire in parallel it will not protect any of the downstream outlets.

 

[drfdisk]

Electrons are negative.

Told ya I could be wrong! :lol: Its been a while since I sat in a science class.

I would think that a fish would be a better conductor than salt water though. If it swam between the source and ground it seems to me like they would shorten the path to the ground.

A probe would trip a GFI if the current is strong enough for what the GFI is rated at. If a pump started leaking voltage from say the end of its windings the voltage would be reduced wouldnt it? In that case the amperage might not be enough to trip the GFI and with a ground in the tank any living thing in the path might have the current pass through them. Like I said I'm not an electrician I'm just courious about it with a new tank going up.

 

[CloudIX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9797578#post9797578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TitansFan
Pickupman66: I don't "feel" anything now that I unplugged the pump. I may pick up a multimeter tomorrow. How could I test for voltage with it? Putting the black end in a plug for ground and just the red probe in the water?

Taking a volt meter and measuring a voltage in your aquarium relative to some arbitrary ground point does not indicate that there is a current flowing through the salt water (conductive medium) in your aquarium! It just means that the aquarium water is at a different potential than the ground reference point that you chose.

Measuring a voltage between submerged points in your aquarium may be misleading if not done correctly. The use of metallic probes can create a “battery effect” if dissimilar metals are involved (think your volt meter probes are the same metal? What if they are chrome plated (most are) and what if you’ve worn the chrome off one to expose brass or copper beneath?).

Also, some currents in salt water are perfectly natural.

 

[DMBillies]

The problem I'm having is not that the tank could have a potential without tripping the GFCI, but that the GFCI did not trip when he grounded the tank through himself (i.e., got shocked). GFCI's work by monitoring the current going into and coming out of the outlet. The instant these vary by more than a certain amount, the GFCI is supposed to trip. I'm wondering, subjectively, how much of a shock this was??? If you were in shoes and/or not grounding yourself through some piece of metal or another grounded appliance (e.g., a light fixture), it's possible that you just weren't conducting enough of the electricity to pop the GFCI. If this was the case though, I would suspect that you were getting more of a tingly feeling than an all-out hair raising jolt.

I've never really considered a grounding rod to be anything but a waste of time and money (having a GFCI protecting me), but maybe I should reconsider that opinion based on the possible effects on the fish and other inhabitants.

 

[TitansFan]

CloudIX: How could I then effectively measure for current in my tank? Instead of using a grounding device I would rather remove any item causing a leak.

Brian: It was not an all-out hair raising jolt. It didn't knock me back or anything. It was though quite uncomfortable and more than a tingle or static shock (like we did as kids dragging our shoes on the carpet).

I am not sure where in the load I have my GFCI. I installed it right behind the other tank in my living room. I think I mentioned this already but, I did plug in a wet plug not paying attention once on this same tank and it tripped the GFCI across the room.

When I got home I looked everywhere for my trigger. I did not see him. I will try again when I get home.
He usually acts like my ADD/HD 2 year old .. never stopping still.

So, if I had a grounding probe and the GFCI never flipped... would I have had just continued to fry my fish until I actually touched the water to discover the electricity leak? That is a very scary thought...

 

[CloudIX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9801839#post9801839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TitansFan
CloudIX: How could I then effectively measure for current in my tank? Instead of using a grounding device I would rather remove any item causing a leak.

Check out this link, this will answer your quesitons about grounding and GFIS. This also goes over the topic about voltage in your tank.

http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html

 

[drfdisk]

Nice read cloud. I think that settles it for me, no probe in my tank! I kinda thought that current would pass through the water and fish with a ground in the tank. I do hope your fish are going to be ok titansfan.

 

[Siffy]

Wow, I don't even know where to start with all the confusion and misinformation here.

If you're wanting to add a GFCI to an entire room or circuit and have a tendency to plug stuff in behind it, install a circuit breaker with a GFCI built-in. Yes, they're quite a bit more expensive than normal breakers but worth it if you're confused about what is and what isn't on the GFCI. I'm not quite sure what you meant by "loop".

Listed in increasing conductance (I think, fish may be most): Freshwater, fish, saltwater. H2O is actually nonconductive, the ions (soap, dirt, salts, etc) in it create its conductivity. Another reason a hairdryer dropped into a tub of just water may not have enough path to ground to trip a GFCI.

My opinion: ground probe bad. GFCI good. Without a ground probe, stray voltage will not travel through the water and possibly fish. Also with a GFCI, you will not be hurt when you create the path to ground. You should test it at least once a month.

And that would be a correct way to test for voltage in the water. Either probe in water, other to ground. It will also give you a stray current reading, just remember voltage and current are different animals.

I just have one question. When you reached into the tank to assist the MJ, the GFCI didn't trip? You should make sure that tank is connected to a GFCI and it's working.

I wouldn't worry about the fish if the GFCI didn't trip. That low amount of current shouldn't be enough to hurt them even if it did pass through them.

 

[cee]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9803377#post9803377 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Siffy
Without a ground probe, stray voltage will not travel through the water and possibly fish.

Disagree. Voltage doesn't travel, current does, and current is what kills. Greater than 5 mA, the setpoint for GFCIs, at 60 Hz, is where cardiac defibrilation can be induced in humans. Stray voltage, generated by a comprimised powerhead or heater, can induce currents throughout the tank of varying levels based on several unpredictable factors. W/o a ground probe, these currents can get quite large, up to the level of the circuit breaker rating. If the ground probe were in place, along with the GFCI, the GFCI would shut down power BEFORE any significant currents (> 5 mA) could flow in the tank. Without the ground probe, it requires a ground to trip the GFCI in the water somewhere, and the only conducting element routinely used in saltwater tanks is the titanium coils in a chill

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9803377#post9803377 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Siffy
Also with a GFCI, you will not be hurt when you create the path to ground. You should test it at least once a month.er or a ground probe.

Agree, but a GFCI alone won't do much for the inhabitants in the aquarium.

BTW, you only felt a slight tingling because your resistance to ground was quite high. This means that well under 5 mA went through your body. Had greater than 5 mA gone through your body and you had no GFCI to protect you, your muscles would have contracted painfully, followed by a likely heart attack, and you would have had a hard time doing anything consciously because the current from the tank would have overridden the signals generated by your nervous system. I hope that helps clear things up.


Dave