Okay aquarists I know I am going to open a can of worms here but here goes after almost 4o yrs as an aquarist I have seen my fair share of products come and go and as a marine aquarist for 23 yrs I am just amazed at how we all ,including myself ,have to buy overpriced skimmers then mod them to get them to perform when with all our hard earned money they should be stellar performers like other engineering products right out of the box .Is it that we are just obsessively crazy or do we demand less of the manufacturers and more of ourselves in providing for our animals corals fishes, inverts. I do not know but I cannot be the only aquarist who feels this way and I could have saved thousands of dollars on skimmers alone over the years when th performance was not up to my standards or I naively fell for the hype!
Mod THis Mod That
- Thread starter j tavares
- Start date
SlowCobra
New member
Name brands mean a lot to a lot of people. There are skimmers out there that are cheap to purchase new. Out of the box though their performance is not what it could/should be. A prime example is the Octopus series of skimmers and especially the 200 model. A few mods on this skimmer and it is a great skimmer that will blow away an ASM in the same class for a lot less money. Even factoring in the cost if you want to replace the now less than stellar pumps they include, you are still way ahead.
Todd I agree with you to a certain point but I also believe We as Aquarists have not held accountable the people who manufacture these products witness skimmers released to the market and then their flaws are noted so they the producers release a new improved version I am all for progress but I have been through way too many products in the aquarium arena that did not pass my exam Wouldn t it be great if you could test drive a skimmer on your tanks for a few weeks to see if it will pass your parameters for great performance. Unfortunately it will never happen . Been through Reef devils, Euroreefs, WAY too many Venturis and still now after thousands of lost dollarsd am reluctant to go after the higher end skimmers cause I am skeptical that MY hard earned experience will only leave me with more lost revenue so I rely on my Husbandry skills rather than on over HYPED products which I know alot of skilled Aquarists the world over would not find fault with that technique!
GuySmilie
Premium Member
Re: Mod THis Mod That
We all get caught up in these forum discussions. The amazing facts and figures are tossed about with gusto. We see everyone 'oohh-ing and ahh-ing' practically ever other post about the fantastic claims and results they are experiencing. Soon, you start thinking, "Hey, they're talking about my skimmer or my [fill in the blank]. I'm getting left behind. I'm NOT going to have the absolute latest bleeding edge 'enhancements'. Hey guys....wait for me! Where did you get that part at? Who carries that fitting? How much is PF4?'
We all get caught up in the fever pitch rhetoric sooner or later to some degree. After all, why are we subscribed to these forums if that is not the case? Works for me! Even though I try to control my urges, I do get caught up in the swirl now and then, also.
Hey, if that fancy new skimmer worked just fine for us when we first got it, and we were beaming from ear-to-ear on how wonderfully it extracted that nasty nasty sludge from our pristine tank, then it's likely still just as good. But we're only humans.
I refer to it as the Pack Mentality Syndrome.
We all get caught up in these forum discussions. The amazing facts and figures are tossed about with gusto. We see everyone 'oohh-ing and ahh-ing' practically ever other post about the fantastic claims and results they are experiencing. Soon, you start thinking, "Hey, they're talking about my skimmer or my [fill in the blank]. I'm getting left behind. I'm NOT going to have the absolute latest bleeding edge 'enhancements'. Hey guys....wait for me! Where did you get that part at? Who carries that fitting? How much is PF4?'
We all get caught up in the fever pitch rhetoric sooner or later to some degree. After all, why are we subscribed to these forums if that is not the case? Works for me! Even though I try to control my urges, I do get caught up in the swirl now and then, also.
Hey, if that fancy new skimmer worked just fine for us when we first got it, and we were beaming from ear-to-ear on how wonderfully it extracted that nasty nasty sludge from our pristine tank, then it's likely still just as good. But we're only humans.
Last edited:
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
You are missing one key point here. Every MOD or tweak takes money to implement. Many of the mods and tweaks are setup specific. Many of them are labor intensive. Manufacturers are concerned with making a product that meets general demands and also earns a reasonable profit with a reasonable amount of tooling and as little technical assembly skill and time as possible.
These are the same reasons that you do not see many folks reselling modded products for profit.
You will find that this phenomenon holds true with any product.
You would complain more if they did the tweaks and then raised the price.
These are the same reasons that you do not see many folks reselling modded products for profit.
You will find that this phenomenon holds true with any product.
You would complain more if they did the tweaks and then raised the price.
I appreciate your input but we the Aquarists drive the market and we at times seem complacent to allow the producers just to produce either a ME TOO product or less than adequate product yet they still command premium dollar Maybe I am cynical but as a medical physician I take great pride in my skills as a caregiver and my services are fairly priced and I am always trying to improve my skills and if a patient is not satisfied they know I will go many extra miles to either help them or find another physcian who can. Ask yourselves have you been satisfied with your skimmers performance and if not what was done to rectify the problem any service oriented profession would do that I have not heard too many aquarium related stories of how skimmers were gladly returned or replaced due to lackluster performance and if someone has had such experiences please let us all know because I would be the first one in line to give that manufacturer my full support because that is what this industry and hobby truly needs to keep it healthy and growing!
SlowCobra
New member
While you are applying this to the aquatic world, doesn't the same hold true for any hobby someone is involved in? Guns, all sorts of modifications from the factory production unit. Racecars, tons and tons of modifications to get the vehicle to perform better.
These are just a few examples. While we as the consumer get screwed more often than not it does serve a purpose. It helps drive the economy. Without an after-market parts supply or those that are innovative enough to come up with better parts or a better way of doing things, what would ever change?
Same goes for medicine. They are continuously coming up with new and better ways of treating patients. Less invasive procedures. Day surgeries instead of over-night/several day stays. These new and better procedures cost more money for different equipment. Or changes and modifications made to existing equipment.
These are just a few examples. While we as the consumer get screwed more often than not it does serve a purpose. It helps drive the economy. Without an after-market parts supply or those that are innovative enough to come up with better parts or a better way of doing things, what would ever change?
Same goes for medicine. They are continuously coming up with new and better ways of treating patients. Less invasive procedures. Day surgeries instead of over-night/several day stays. These new and better procedures cost more money for different equipment. Or changes and modifications made to existing equipment.
I am 100% satisfied with the performance of my das ex-2 on my 90gal reef. But these are in the upper end of skimmers in terms of performance.
I think some people run into problems from poor WQ and like to blame the skimmer for these problems. Most of the time these problems come from over feeding or poor water flow.
I think some people run into problems from poor WQ and like to blame the skimmer for these problems. Most of the time these problems come from over feeding or poor water flow.
carlso63
Reefkeeping since 1977
Here on RC, Skimmer preference is second only to lighting preference in terms of how many different opinions - some disguised as "fact" - you will get if you ask "What's the best skimmer?"
It is also an area where some people compare a $1000 skimmer with a $175 skimmer and feel that it is a fair comparison... it is like comparing a Kia with a Mercedes and then "bragging" how much better the Mercedes is... at 4 - 5X the price it should be that much better...
In my case I am using a somewhat modified Coralife 220 in sump (meshmod and gate valve mod) on my 125 reef... if you go by the "experts" I am way underskimming; expert opinion would say that size is only good for maybe 50 gallons - and then they would list all the skimmers that they feel would be a better choice (though probably 2-3X the cost as well...)
I also have issues with the idea that skimmate volume always indicates a better skimmer. In any given environment, there is only a given organic load; no more, no less - you can't skim out more organics than are actually present. For example, if my reef produces 6 oz. of pure organics per day, then anything over 6 oz. per day in my collector is nothing but tank water . Period.
I always chuckle at guys who boast how "great" their skimmer is, then post a pic of their daily 'half gallon' of skimmate...skimmate that basically looks like a weak iced tea mix - mainly because it is mostly just water...
I have learned to skim extremely dry... enough so that if I allow the collector to fill with maybe 2 inches of skimmate it is so dark and so opague that not only can you not see through the collector - at all - but you can't even shine a flashlight through it! And the smell ... indescribably foul... I gag and wretch everytime I empty the collector, and have to wipe it down twice weekly because it is so thick it clings to the inside riser tube maybe a quarter inch thick...
Yet here I'd be told my skimmer "sucks" becuase I don't dump a half gallon of tank water out of my collection cup everyday.
Go figure...:lol:
It is also an area where some people compare a $1000 skimmer with a $175 skimmer and feel that it is a fair comparison... it is like comparing a Kia with a Mercedes and then "bragging" how much better the Mercedes is... at 4 - 5X the price it should be that much better...
In my case I am using a somewhat modified Coralife 220 in sump (meshmod and gate valve mod) on my 125 reef... if you go by the "experts" I am way underskimming; expert opinion would say that size is only good for maybe 50 gallons - and then they would list all the skimmers that they feel would be a better choice (though probably 2-3X the cost as well...)
I also have issues with the idea that skimmate volume always indicates a better skimmer. In any given environment, there is only a given organic load; no more, no less - you can't skim out more organics than are actually present. For example, if my reef produces 6 oz. of pure organics per day, then anything over 6 oz. per day in my collector is nothing but tank water . Period.
I always chuckle at guys who boast how "great" their skimmer is, then post a pic of their daily 'half gallon' of skimmate...skimmate that basically looks like a weak iced tea mix - mainly because it is mostly just water...
I have learned to skim extremely dry... enough so that if I allow the collector to fill with maybe 2 inches of skimmate it is so dark and so opague that not only can you not see through the collector - at all - but you can't even shine a flashlight through it! And the smell ... indescribably foul... I gag and wretch everytime I empty the collector, and have to wipe it down twice weekly because it is so thick it clings to the inside riser tube maybe a quarter inch thick...
Yet here I'd be told my skimmer "sucks" becuase I don't dump a half gallon of tank water out of my collection cup everyday.
Go figure...:lol:
I have to agree with Bean and would add that a lot of the time the mfg has their money spent up front, so it is hard to retool another addition until they get some return on their investment. That and our hobby (sad to say) is rediculously small compared to many of other hobbies out there.
I also believe there would be a lot more nice tanks out there if people could set them up and leave them alone (IE: keep your tinkering hands out!).
I also believe there would be a lot more nice tanks out there if people could set them up and leave them alone (IE: keep your tinkering hands out!).
steve the plumb
In Memoriam
why not charge more for a modded skimmer.For those who want to diy give them the option and for those that don't ,pay a little extra for a modded skimmer.Bean I guess you have never owned a paintball gun.Talk about mods and the money you can spend or what you can buy thats modded.Same thing with cars.People spend lots of money modding cars to go faster or perform better.There is alot of crap out there on the market.There is also alot of good products.I do admit alot of the products are overpriced but I guess the demand drives the price.
8BALL_99
New member
Kb, His point was people saying that their skimmer is the best cause how much skimmate they get per day is a joke...I agree 100% with Him.. I laugh when I see these posts myself.. It just means your water is way to dirty to start with...
As far as skimmers not up to par.. I've been happy with every skimmer I've had except for my ASM Mini. Even my Seaclone 150 back in the day wasn't bad.. If you kept it clean it did ok for a 70 gallon..For 99 bucks what do you expect... I mean sure some of them suck and are overpriced. But just do your research and you will be fine.. Look for real numbers.. Not just the endless posts about My skimmer rocks I have to dump the cup everyday lol.. If you buy a cheap skimmer you might have to work a little on it to get good performance.. If you don't want to mod it then don't buy a cheap skimmer.
As far as skimmers not up to par.. I've been happy with every skimmer I've had except for my ASM Mini. Even my Seaclone 150 back in the day wasn't bad.. If you kept it clean it did ok for a 70 gallon..For 99 bucks what do you expect... I mean sure some of them suck and are overpriced. But just do your research and you will be fine.. Look for real numbers.. Not just the endless posts about My skimmer rocks I have to dump the cup everyday lol.. If you buy a cheap skimmer you might have to work a little on it to get good performance.. If you don't want to mod it then don't buy a cheap skimmer.
carlso63
Reefkeeping since 1977
The problem with your "fact" is proportionately you are also removing alot more water with a slightly higher amount of organics.
Do you honestly believe a guy who "pulls" a half - gallon of 'light tea' is removing that much more organics than a guy who "pulls" 8 oz of solid sludge?
And the guy with the half gal is going to have to spend time and $$$ making up new SW to replace what he just threw out (eventually); he can't just use RO FW topoff or his SG is going to start going down... a dry skim can just be made up with RO FW and the SG won't budge - plus, since most if not all skimmers are sensitive to water level a dry skim keeps your level more stable whereas a wet skim lowers your tank water level (especially if you don't top off every single day)
Think of it this way... a daily 100% water change would remove 100% of the organics, right? So why don't the "best" aquarists do a daily 100% water change - since even the 'best' skimmer is not going to remove 100% of the organic load?
Because it is impractical, expensive and (water) wasteful; if a decent skimmer can remove, say, 90% of the organic load - is it worth the extra time / $$$ / wasted water to get that last 10% ?
I think not. IMO only thing "wet" skimming is good for is if you look at it as a small partial water change...
But I would agree that a clogged riser tube hurts skimmer performance; that's why i have to clean out mine every other day
King-Kong
New member
carlso:
I agree with your comparison in relation to cars... I see it often with my ATI skimmer and the comparisons people make to Bubble Kings... They cost 3x as much as mine, I'd be pretty ****ed off if it WASNT significantly better!
However, I must take issue with your beliefs on wet skimming. My tank would fail if I had dark dry skimmate. The dry skimmate would leave organics and detritus in my tank longer than wet skimming, causing it to break down and release harmful phosphourus compounds. The IMMEDIATE removal of detritus and uneaten food is very important for all reef tanks, but moreso in a BB tank. For this reason, skimming wet is king.
I agree with your comparison in relation to cars... I see it often with my ATI skimmer and the comparisons people make to Bubble Kings... They cost 3x as much as mine, I'd be pretty ****ed off if it WASNT significantly better!
However, I must take issue with your beliefs on wet skimming. My tank would fail if I had dark dry skimmate. The dry skimmate would leave organics and detritus in my tank longer than wet skimming, causing it to break down and release harmful phosphourus compounds. The IMMEDIATE removal of detritus and uneaten food is very important for all reef tanks, but moreso in a BB tank. For this reason, skimming wet is king.
The problem with that is that the MFG has to provide tech support, and a pair of hands to not only build the mod, but also service the mod if needed. Assuming this person is not working full time, you either have an idle employee or someone who only works part time. Plus if they damage the unit while modding they have to replace the parts on their dime.
Still though some companies will do this. AquaC is a good example. They will mod their old stuff to be either equal or close to their new stuff.
steve the plumb
In Memoriam
I don't know if you would call something as simple as adding mesh a hard mod to do.Since you do see people doing a mesh mod why doesn't the skimmer company just come with mesh like the ATI.You would figure that a company would benefit from skimmers that get modded.Would give them another model to make.It does cost money to change a setup but why not build a better skimmer (molded to the best modded one) This way they are selling you a better performing skimmer and better skimmer does equal better sales.Look what Deltec charges for there skimmers vs Das How is it that Das makes a good skimmer thats comparable to some of the Deltec models but yet is cheaper and performs great out of the box.
Similar threads
