Mourning period for clown fish.

[Chromis_VL]

Hi,

2 months ago, I restarted my sea water tank after an idle period of 6 years.

Last month, got myself 2 Percs, a 6-line wrasse, a Royal Gramma and a Yellow Watchman.

As I didn't have a quarantine tank, I've put them all on the tank and hoped for the best. :debi:

The YWG died within days of his lower lip became damaged (I assumed it was a fight with the 6-line).

Both 6-line and RG and getting along (phew) and eating quite well.

The clown fish never ate much but they did eat and were looking very active.

Last week, they started get white edges on their fins and they looked like they were powder coated. They went from eating very small bits to eating nothing at all.

On the advice of the LFS, I gave them a FW bath (3 minutes), but unfortunately they both died today within hours of the other (although one was looking much stronger than the other).

I still have no idea of what caused it. But I guess that a Perc not eating is going to cause some issues.

My question is: should I wait some time before introducing new percs?

How long? I want to avoid introducing new fish if there is a risk for them.

 

[britreefer]

your fish had ich. the freshwater bath is kind of old school, its very stressful for fish and if you leave them in too long it can really damage them. I would avoid that method. do you have a reef tank? if not then you can raise the temperature to 85 or higher and im not sure about products in belgium but you can use Ich attack which is a reef safe treatment and wait a few weeks. this will kill the ich present in your tank and you can then re stock after the wait. i suggest drip acclimating all your next fish which is far less stressful for them.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I'd guess your fish had velvet or brooklynella; based on the timing of the deaths. As long as you don't use a QT, i think these problems are inevitable. IMO, Ich-Attack, and similar products, have shown to be worthless. Raising temp does nothing for SW ich (it helps with FW ich, a totally different parasite). I'd read the stickies at the top of this section of the forum.

 

[snorvich]

I'd guess your fish had velvet or brooklynella; based on the timing of the deaths. As long as you don't use a QT, i think these problems are inevitable. IMO, Ich-Attack, and similar products, have shown to be worthless. Raising temp does nothing for SW ich (it helps with FW ich, a totally different parasite). I'd read the stickies at the top of this section of the forum.

Excellent advice.

 

[Chromis_VL]

I'd guess your fish had velvet or brooklynella; based on the timing of the deaths. As long as you don't use a QT, i think these problems are inevitable. IMO, Ich-Attack, and similar products, have shown to be worthless. Raising temp does nothing for SW ich (it helps with FW ich, a totally different parasite). I'd read the stickies at the top of this section of the forum.

I thought velvet as well in the beginning, I tried to get a tank to do some copper treatment but could get a big enough that i could safely dose.

I'll go through the stickies, and get myself a QT.

The Gramma and 6-line seem to be doing fine (the ones that I was most afraid of). I hope they keep like this! Do I need to take any special care?

So, even before I read the stickies:headwalls:, can I get some advice from you on size of QT, time of quarantine and meds to have at hand?

When could I safely add 2 other Percs if it was Brook?

Thanks to all for your help

 

[Chromis_VL]

Just bought a 15g tank for a QT. Already chose 2 bigger Percs which seemed to be eating well. Put a reserve on them and will wait for a couple of days while setting up the QT. I'll go to the LFS again tomorrow or the day after to check them out.
Any tips on what to look for? Besides their appetite and appearance, I wouldn't have a clue what to look further.

Plan is to pick'em up in the weekend and QT them for 4 weeks.

 

[dunc101]

Just bought a 15g tank for a QT. Already chose 2 bigger Percs which seemed to be eating well. Put a reserve on them and will wait for a couple of days while setting up the QT. I'll go to the LFS again tomorrow or the day after to check them out.
Any tips on what to look for? Besides their appetite and appearance, I wouldn't have a clue what to look further.

Plan is to pick'em up in the weekend and QT them for 4 weeks.

I would be very cautious with the two new clowns. If it was ich that the other fish had, then your main DT probably has ich as well and your existing fish in the main tank could start showing symptoms. Your best bet might be to QT all fish in your main tank as well for at least 8 weeks and to treat with hypo or cupramine to get rid of the ich. Leaving your main tank fallow for 8 weeks or more should be enough time for the ich in the main tank to die off. I've gone through this as well... so I know it's a pain!

 

[britreefer]

not quite sure how you can say raising temp does nothing and how ich attach or similar doesnt either. I have used it a number of times with great success, as many others have too. Ich is often all encompassing seeing as the parasites are so closely related in infection and life cycle. I believe knowing how to use ich attack properly is the key to success. the product alone will not "cure" ich seeing as it only kills ich at certain times of its life cycle. I use Ich attack because it works on velvet and similar protists too. raising the temp causes the life cycle to accelerate and combined with ich attach or similar will kill all stages of the parasite ( its biological fact that higher temps accelerate metabolism and reproduction in bacteria, protists, and many other organisms). it doesnt work when you just throw the bottle in your tank because the cysts on the fish or in the benthic stage are not affected. so you think you have cured it untill these dormant ones hatch. The waiting period is crucial because the parasite only survives with hosts present in the system, aka fish. so higher temps= faster reproduction=faster time to free swimming stage=easy killing+ no host= no more ich or velvet. To say the methods are worthless and dont work doesnt really help nor give reason for their worthlessness. if you put fish in your tank without treating it properly you will just have another problem with the same parasite once your fish become prone to it. something to think about anyway.

 

[britreefer]

I should also add/ clarify that raising the temp with fish/ corals in there is not good. its is purely a way to rid a tank of the parasite if the tank is pretty much empty. which it is in your case. like suggested read the stickies but the methods work if you use them right.

 

[Chromis_VL]

Your best bet might be to QT all fish in your main tank as well for at least 8 weeks and to treat with hypo or cupramine to get rid of the ich. Leaving your main tank fallow for 8 weeks or more should be enough time for the ich in the main tank to die off.

How will the tank fallow, if the fish are inside?

I have mixed feelings here:

Is it be better to remove the fish and QT them and the clowns at the same time?
Maybe the best approach is to remove the Gramma and 6-line to the QT, let the tank fallow (min.8 weeks), reintroduce them in the DT, get the clownfish, QT it for 4 weeks and then into the DT. This seems to be the safer route.

Anyway, I'll be removing 2 happy fish which are eating and showing no signs of disease and maybe stress them by putting them in Q.

Your views are still very welcome.

Still going through the stickies :headwally:

 

[MrTuskfish]

There is no way, other than letting a tank go fishless for about 8 weeks, to rid it of parasites. This is probably the most common question on the disease forum and the answer is always the same. Just because you don't see parasites doesn't mean they aren't there. They are, and will return when conditions and timing is right. Happens every time. There just isn't an easier, softer way. BTW, putting fish into a decent QT isn't going to stress them and certainly is no reason (IMO & IME) not to treat them.

 

[Chromis_VL]

Thanks MrTuskfish,
The question remains if i may qt and treat all fish together (including the new percs) or if i should wait and qt just the existing ones.
I'm thinking waiting sounds better, but i could be overlooking some detail.

Also, if the gramma or 6-line show something when on QT, how should i treat'em?
I'll google a bit as well, but is copper use possible?

Should I use any meds during QT? or just leave the fish there?

My QT is quite small (15g or so)

 

[britreefer]

+1 Mrtuskfish. you will see the problem come back without leaving your DT empty and treating. you can QT your fish together, yes. chances are they are still prone to the disease while its in your display tank.

 

[Chromis_VL]

it's a PITA to QT fish and try to understand the best course for a treatment, when I don't even know what killed the Percs.

I've just cancelled the Percs and will focus on the Gramma and 6-line.
I'll put them on the QT with no treatment for 8 weeks.

Should I use water from the DT to start up the QT?
I have no sump and wouldn't like to put the filter directly into the tank.
Any other suggestions?
I have 2 pieces of dead live rock that I can use along on the QT to start cycling it.


How can I ensure that I don't bring the "bugs" back in when I put the fish back in the DT?

I know that Ich and other parasites will forever reside in a tank (Yes, I've read snorvich's sticky on fallow period) but I wouldn't like to go through all the grief of ammonia monitoring + daily water changes during 2 months for nothing.

 

[britreefer]

you can in fact rid your tank of ich completely with the steps already mentioned in this thread. it is possible. Just leaving the tank empty does not guarantee 100% that the ich will be gone..thats why its best to hit it from a few different angles. dont set your QT up with water from your DT that would defeat the purpose as you could then have the ich in your QT too...it would eventually die but why start a step behind IMO. best to start from scratch. decide on the type of QT you want. I am a fan of hyposaline QT's with salinity around 1.010 to 1.015 this is a pretty affective method. and you can combine it with the correct medicines to cover all stages of the bugs cycle. the period that you have your DT empty and if you combine with I prefer non copper based medicines you can get the bugs out of your DT too. Then you must QT every fish you get before you put into your DT in order to stay bug free.

 

[snorvich]

I am a fan of hyposaline QT's with salinity around 1.010 to 1.015 this is a pretty affective method.

Well, no. Hyposalinity will only affect ich at 1.009 and below. Fish can tolerate 1.008 but not below

Then you must QT every fish you get before you put into your DT in order to stay bug free.

I agree, QT always.

 

[britreefer]

There is no "magic" number for hyposaline QT's. a low salinity will affect the protist no matter. that is like saying corals can only lay calcium at cal levels above 450. which is not true, they can do it at many levels...

 

[Chromis_VL]

Clownfish probably died from velvet. It matches a lot more the descriptions i've seen around.
The Gramma now seems to have 2 or 3 spots of ich on his tail.
I'm planning to start with hypo and get rid of the ich.
After the fish are out of ich, I'll tackle the velvet.

I know that with copper, i'd kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
But i may also ending up 2 fish due to my lack of experience with it.

While this is done, the tank will be fishless for 8 weeks, maybe more.

 

[Chromis_VL]

The sticky by sk8r mentions some possible compatibility issues of wrasses with copper.
Any experiences on the matter?

 

[britreefer]

they are so similar you can treat them together, thats what I have been trying to say. there are meds that affect both. hypo will inhibit both. you can do this whole thing at once. ich is often all encompassing which i stated in a previous post. you can argue with it or not, but many people say ich for multiple parasites. the people above have done nothing but try and find somethign wrong with what I have said. not sure why, seeing as there are no magic numbers such as 1.009, the lower the better but low salinity will inhibit no matter what. the stickies on this forum are great but many have been copied and pasted from google, and people just regurgitate what they read from them. yes I agree you had velvet specifically. Treatment is still similar. velvet is affected by hypo but can live through it so therefore you need copper or similar for a complete cure. no host means no protist, higher temp works to speed the cycle and you can turn out your light for velvet as it photosynthesizes so your hitting multiple parasites from multiple angles. some fish familes do have trouble with ich, wrasses are one. you should be fine with a 6-line though. use a cupramine based copper as its more stable and finiky species seem to do better with it, its also easier to remove and doesnt completely screw your system up. you can also try all the above with non copper based meds. they do work.