Mourning period for clown fish.
- Thread starter Chromis_VL
- Start date
MrTuskfish
Team RC
I feel the same way.
Not an insult; but this seems to be a collection of all the biggest myths in existance regarding SW parasites. A little research will show that this collection of misinformation has been PROVEN wrong. BTW, I can remember when I assumed all the points were probably correct; but time, research, and listening to real experts has been very enlightening. There's still plenty of unknowns in the area of SW parasites; sticking to what is known is vital for us.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
Copper is always contraversial. I've used Cupramine copper with no problems on wrasse of every description and have never had a problem. I use copper on all new fish in QT. I always make sure fish are feeding before adding copper add more slowly than the bottle suggests, watch for problems (if a fish stops eating, I back off the copper, its a 1st sign of copper problems), and treat at slightly less than the suggested .50ppm level suggested by SeaChem.
In my experience slowly raising copper level is essential. Many fish can deal with copper at slightly less than therapeutic levels. So, I agree with MrTuskfish. Watch fish behavior (especially eating behavior).
Chromis_VL
New member
Thanks,
It will be my first quarantine / treatment, so I'll take the opportunity to try some stuff.
I'm fully aware that I can't use hypo and copper at the same time, but since I've diagnosed ich on the Gramma, I'll try the hypo first.
My QT is running with an internal filter and I've added some cycle bacteria to it. As soon as I don't see ammonia or nitrite, I'll put the fish in and "hypo" them.
After 6-7 weeks, hopefully there's no ich and the fish are still alive :-/
Then depending on how the fish are doing, I'll try the copper. But here opinions diverge, most posts recommend .50ppm but I've seen a post from a RC Team member mentioning .25ppm.
Anyway, since I hope it's merely prophylactic, I'll take my time to increase the copper, and at the first sign of distress from the fish I'll pull it out.
In the meantime the tank will remain fishless for these 9 weeks and hopefully I'll get rid of those 99.something %
The reason I'm doing this is to ensure parasite free fish + gain some experience on this.
I just hope I don't end up killing the Gramma & 6-line, as the girls and wife are really becoming attached to these wonderful fish.
I can't afford both financially and morally to keep on killing fish.
It will be my first quarantine / treatment, so I'll take the opportunity to try some stuff.
I'm fully aware that I can't use hypo and copper at the same time, but since I've diagnosed ich on the Gramma, I'll try the hypo first.
My QT is running with an internal filter and I've added some cycle bacteria to it. As soon as I don't see ammonia or nitrite, I'll put the fish in and "hypo" them.
After 6-7 weeks, hopefully there's no ich and the fish are still alive :-/
Then depending on how the fish are doing, I'll try the copper. But here opinions diverge, most posts recommend .50ppm but I've seen a post from a RC Team member mentioning .25ppm.
Anyway, since I hope it's merely prophylactic, I'll take my time to increase the copper, and at the first sign of distress from the fish I'll pull it out.
In the meantime the tank will remain fishless for these 9 weeks and hopefully I'll get rid of those 99.something %
The reason I'm doing this is to ensure parasite free fish + gain some experience on this.
I just hope I don't end up killing the Gramma & 6-line, as the girls and wife are really becoming attached to these wonderful fish.
I can't afford both financially and morally to keep on killing fish.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
I wish SeaChem would offer some more detailed info with their Cupramine. They have great tech support and a decent web-site; but don't really get into the things that give copper a bad rep.
You're right on the secret, IMO. Increase very gradually, unless you have a very sick fish and no choice. SC suggests starting with a dosage of .25 and going up to .50 in 48 hours. IMO & IME; this is too much, too fast. Even copper-sensitive fish (which SC should also mention) can usually do just fine if a therapeutic level of about .35ppm is introduced over about 5 days. IME, warning signs are the feeding stops, possibly reddish rash spots, and just the general lethargy stuff. Be ready to reduce Cu levels if this stuff appears. WCs. carbon, or Cuprisorb. In a good HOB QT filter, Cuprisorb can remove Cu in a very short time. After fish have gotten back to normal, its fine to try again, but go slower. Be sure to start the Cu treatment timetable when the fish is finally at the desired level. I also wish SC could provide a chart with more realistic dosages for different groups of fish.
Over the last 20 years or so, I've used copper (mostly Cupramine) on more fish than most folks would believe. As a preventative measure for all my fish in my several big tanks prior to Katrina, all my fish bought since then (lots), all the fish for my friend & helper's 2 big tanks, and even fish with copper-treatable conditions for a LFS before I moved (several of which were beyond help with Oodinium). I did lose a Flame Angel, and possibly a Dalmatian puffer to the copper and that was before I really took the steps outlined above. I think a Flame is the only fish I defiantly wouldn't dose with copper; which is why I guess I don't own one. I'm in the minority I know, but I have no problem getting puffers,angels (except Flames, but will still try again), and other copper-sensitive up to an effective dose of copper. I'm on a rant, I know, its tough enough to just get folks to use a QT, using copper as a preventive is controversial and I sure don't expect everyone to do it starting tomorrow. I also wish the myth about silicone absorbing & releasing copper; making any tank that ever contained copper useless for inverts, would finally be put to death once and for all.
Chromis_VL
New member
Fishes were put in QT yesterday.
Too stressed to eat, I didn't even try.
I just wished my QT was set with a bit more time in advance.
Tackling the WCs will be the most challenging with hypo.
What % would you change on a daily basis?
All my salt water is 1,024 so I need to make a batch of 1,009.
Too stressed to eat, I didn't even try.
I just wished my QT was set with a bit more time in advance.
Tackling the WCs will be the most challenging with hypo.
What % would you change on a daily basis?
All my salt water is 1,024 so I need to make a batch of 1,009.
I currently have a Lunare Wrasse and a Red Fairy Wrasse in QT for Ich and treating them with Cupramine, it took care of the ich in about a week and they are still eating and going strong after 4weeks in QT. BTW there is 2 False Percs and a yellow Tang in ther too and all are doing great,(letting my DT Fallow for 8 weeks) I currently have the Cupramine level at around.35 . Good luck
Just letting you Know Mr. Tuskfish that I had a 30 Gallon Tank with a crushed coral substrate that was treated with Cupramine, and after about 2 months with Carbon and Poly Filter pads and regular water changes and no other changes I reintroduced inverts into the tank (peppermint shrimp, urchins and snails) and they were fine! I have alot to learn still and always listen to you and Mr Snorvich for advice but I thought you might like to hear that! haha
MrTuskfish
Team RC
I can't imagine how to do WCs with hypo. There just isn't any room for error; go an hour at 1.010 and new ich theronts can find a fish host and you're back to square one. Go much time under 1.008 and the fish croaks. Not much wiggle room. I'm no pro with hypo, but if I had to control ammonia in a hypo QT; I'd use one of the ammonia neutralizers (Prime, Ammo-Lock, etc). BTW, if you use these; your ammonia tests won't work, you'll need one of those little ammonia alert badges. Also, never use copper in a tank that has one of the ammonia neutralizers. I think my remarks here are OK, but wait for someone who uses hypo.
Chromis_VL
New member
Thanks MrTuskfish.
Just ordered Cupramine and an ammonia alert badge online.
I'll order a Salifert Copper test at my LFS (bit cheaper there).
No signs of Ich on the fish, only the Gramma is not eating yet.
He's really shy, everytime he sees me he hides.
I 'm hoping it starts eating again soon.
Maybe I skip the hypo and jump straight to copper.
How much should i use for a prophylatic approach? For how long?
2 weeks seems a lot (if there are no symptoms)!
Just ordered Cupramine and an ammonia alert badge online.
I'll order a Salifert Copper test at my LFS (bit cheaper there).
No signs of Ich on the fish, only the Gramma is not eating yet.
He's really shy, everytime he sees me he hides.
I 'm hoping it starts eating again soon.
Maybe I skip the hypo and jump straight to copper.
How much should i use for a prophylatic approach? For how long?
2 weeks seems a lot (if there are no symptoms)!
MrTuskfish
Team RC
IMO, a minimum of 3-4 weeks copper, ich can go well beyond 2 weeks before showing any signs. A good read:http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1992196
foxrazr
Member
I would also look into using Instant Ocean Bio Spira. That way you can leave the cupramine there at least for the recommended 14 days without having to do water changes. Some people say Bio-Spira is BS but it does work. I have used it numerous times. The last time I put 5 lyretail anthias to a brand new quarantine tank 40 Breeder and all survived for 2 months with no water changes. I had the ammonia alert badge and never had a spike in ammonia. This batch of fish I only gave them two rounds of Prazi and no cupramine.
Chromis_VL
New member
Yes, here I am again.
I'm now completely fishless and lost for words.
Here's part 2 of my tale:
The Gramma eventually died, after a delay in shipment from the place where I ordered Cupramine, so I wasn't able to start treatment on time to save it. At the end, poor thing was covered in white.
Now, for the real sad part:
Through tick and thin, the 6-line has endured all the bad stuff.
Finally on a QT with copper and eating quite well (especially mussels), everything was looking very good for the little fellow.
After 3-4 weeks in Cupramine @ 0.5 ppm, I have decided it was time to bring the levels down to eventually put it back in the DT by Xmas.
Put some activated coal in the filter. In 3 days, the levels of Cu were 0.
But guess what wasn't at 0. Yep, some Ich somehow managed to survive 4 weeks of copper, and quickly took advantage to install itself on the 6-line.
Poor thing stopped eating (right about the same time as CU was 0) and was dead 24 hours later.
A gill smear on microscope showed Ich all over the place. Typical cone shaped "blobs" on the gills.
Curiously, there wasn't one single white spot to be seen on the fish itself.
I don't really expect answers here, but wanted to share the pain and eventual learnings out of this one.
Is this normal?
Did I have to take any other measures? Other meds at the same time?
My DT is almost fallow, but TBH I don't feel like putting fish anymore.
Current population:
1 - GSP colony (growing)
1 - Euphyllia parancora (looking good)
1 - Favia (beautifull)
1 - Xenia (growing). I think it's a Xenia -it came as a hitchhiker with the Favia
2 - Green/Orange Zoanthus colonies (originally one, but the shells where they were split)
1 - Green Zoanthus colony.
1 - Seriatopora caliendrum
1 - Turbinaria
2 - Cleaner Skunk Shrimp
1 - Blood Shrimp
1 - Pepermint shrimp
6 - Trochus "snails" (reproducing)
Fish: -5
Understand what I mean? Maybe I get the courage again to put a couple of "Nemos" on my daughters request.
I'm now completely fishless and lost for words.
Here's part 2 of my tale:
The Gramma eventually died, after a delay in shipment from the place where I ordered Cupramine, so I wasn't able to start treatment on time to save it. At the end, poor thing was covered in white.
Now, for the real sad part:
Through tick and thin, the 6-line has endured all the bad stuff.
Finally on a QT with copper and eating quite well (especially mussels), everything was looking very good for the little fellow.
After 3-4 weeks in Cupramine @ 0.5 ppm, I have decided it was time to bring the levels down to eventually put it back in the DT by Xmas.
Put some activated coal in the filter. In 3 days, the levels of Cu were 0.
But guess what wasn't at 0. Yep, some Ich somehow managed to survive 4 weeks of copper, and quickly took advantage to install itself on the 6-line.
Poor thing stopped eating (right about the same time as CU was 0) and was dead 24 hours later.
A gill smear on microscope showed Ich all over the place. Typical cone shaped "blobs" on the gills.
Curiously, there wasn't one single white spot to be seen on the fish itself.
I don't really expect answers here, but wanted to share the pain and eventual learnings out of this one.
Is this normal?
Did I have to take any other measures? Other meds at the same time?
My DT is almost fallow, but TBH I don't feel like putting fish anymore.
Current population:
1 - GSP colony (growing)
1 - Euphyllia parancora (looking good)
1 - Favia (beautifull)
1 - Xenia (growing). I think it's a Xenia -it came as a hitchhiker with the Favia
2 - Green/Orange Zoanthus colonies (originally one, but the shells where they were split)
1 - Green Zoanthus colony.
1 - Seriatopora caliendrum
1 - Turbinaria
2 - Cleaner Skunk Shrimp
1 - Blood Shrimp
1 - Pepermint shrimp
6 - Trochus "snails" (reproducing)
Fish: -5
Understand what I mean? Maybe I get the courage again to put a couple of "Nemos" on my daughters request.
Chromis, Im sorry to hear about that. I am dealing with Ick in a HT as we speak. For future reference and to help others learn and grow from what you went through? The salifret test showed .5 for 4 weeks? You werent using any water from the DT in the QT? Nets, buckets, feeders, etc all need to remain seperate. Not saying this is what happened to you, just looking for all the details. From the time you took the fish out of the DT, you didnt add anything wet into the DT (corals, crabs, snails, rock, sand etc)?
Oh and were you doing water changes in the QT? You dosed your cahnge water with the correct amount of copper before adding it to the tank?
Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand why a proven, cure for ich seemed that it didnt work. From all the research I've done, the only time I've seen it fail, was cross contaimination. I.e. people adding corals to the DT while treating fish in the qt.
Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand why a proven, cure for ich seemed that it didnt work. From all the research I've done, the only time I've seen it fail, was cross contaimination. I.e. people adding corals to the DT while treating fish in the qt.
Chromis_VL
New member
Hi Andy,
Why indeed???
Once the Gramma and the 6-line went to the QT, they didn't leave again.
I kept a strict quarantine and don't use common utensils.
My Salifert indicated 0,5ppm throughout all the time.
Testing was done everyday after replenishing with freshwater.
QT had a line to keep it at the same level.
PH had some big fluctuations between 7,2 and 8 but this was always the case during the 4 weeks.
The weekly water changes always included a pro-rata quantity of Cupramine.
40 liter (10 galon) QT = 2 x 1ml Cupramine
10 liter ( 2,5 galon) WC = 0,5ml Cupramine
NO3 was 30ppm (also Salifert), NO2 =0 and Ammonia Badge Alert never changed colour.
The only thing left is my water supply. I buy water at my LFS (both SW & FW).
I trust their practices are ok, but if they had cross contamination of their SW that could account for this.
I did a small water change (5 liter) when I added the activated coal to the filter
Maybe I need to prepare my own SW (buying only the RO water and adding the salt)
Anyway, I hope my luck starts improving.
A small question (for which I know the answer already): Once fish are in the DT, for how long should corals and other inverts be QT'ed?
At this moment, I don't have a QT setup that can hold corals for a long time.
Is it best to finish setting my DT with some more corals (that I really want), let it fallow and then add fish? or is there another way?
Why indeed???
Once the Gramma and the 6-line went to the QT, they didn't leave again.
I kept a strict quarantine and don't use common utensils.
My Salifert indicated 0,5ppm throughout all the time.
Testing was done everyday after replenishing with freshwater.
QT had a line to keep it at the same level.
PH had some big fluctuations between 7,2 and 8 but this was always the case during the 4 weeks.
The weekly water changes always included a pro-rata quantity of Cupramine.
40 liter (10 galon) QT = 2 x 1ml Cupramine
10 liter ( 2,5 galon) WC = 0,5ml Cupramine
NO3 was 30ppm (also Salifert), NO2 =0 and Ammonia Badge Alert never changed colour.
The only thing left is my water supply. I buy water at my LFS (both SW & FW).
I trust their practices are ok, but if they had cross contamination of their SW that could account for this.
I did a small water change (5 liter) when I added the activated coal to the filter
Maybe I need to prepare my own SW (buying only the RO water and adding the salt)
Anyway, I hope my luck starts improving.
A small question (for which I know the answer already): Once fish are in the DT, for how long should corals and other inverts be QT'ed?
At this moment, I don't have a QT setup that can hold corals for a long time.
Is it best to finish setting my DT with some more corals (that I really want), let it fallow and then add fish? or is there another way?
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