Much trouble keeping SPS.

[Potatohead]

Hi guys/gals,

I'm back with a slight update.

I raised my whole lighting rig 20 inches, so now my lights are 22" from the surface of the water. I added some SPS frags for a test and had the same issue happen again. I also added some Zoas and had them melt over night. I then got more of the same Zoa frags (thank you to www.Fragbox.com for all the FREE tester frags) and put them in the shade and they were fine.

This lead me to believe that it was my T5s being to intense, so I took them offline.

I am thinking that perhaps my T5s are to strong due to how shallow my tank is or GFO is making water too clean and intensifing the lighting (I dunno if this is true, I read it on a couple of other threads.) Or my GFO is stripping my water of nutrients and my corals are starving thus making them more sensitive to light? (Again dont know if this is possible)

I have been running my radions only at 20-30% for almost 2 weeks after adding more (sigh) sps frags, so far so good. I also took my GFO offline and got rid of my leathers. Stuff still isnt looking amazing but its not dying.... yet.

I have also had almost no algae growth in my tank, I clean my glass maybe once every 2 weeks. I also have no coraline algae now, though I did before. I feel like this isnt normal, and what lead me to believe that perhaps my GFO is stripping my water.

I did some research into my light, ATI Powermodule (the old one, not the one with LED) 60" 8 bulb, and found another user who had similar issues as me, though he had a 10 bulb over a 21" high tank.

I am thinking of purchasing a sunpower instead because I read it is less powerful than the sunpower. Any advice on this?

I will be getting a PAR meter tomorrow night and will be testing my lighting, so I will have more info.

Man, your problems sound identical to mine. No algae at all and trouble keeping most SPS corals. I also think it may be simply needing to feed more, I really have no other ideas since I have tried everything else. I only really feed once a day and half the time it's pellets. Be sure to report back and let us know how it goes.

 

[jda]

The T5 are fine. Put them back on and let them run for 8 hours a day. Stop the LED for now and see if that changes anything. There is no possible way that a handful of T5s are too much light, so move on from this. You could be burning the coral if the Radions are too close or intense, but that is not very likely either.

You should not be running GFO unless you have a phosphate issue. Otherwise, you can be starving the coral. If you can starve algae, you can starve diatoms in the coral. You see this a lot where people watch a BRS video about GFO or biopellets and use them from day-one when their tank is nutrient poor and their tank suffers for a long time.

Did you post somewhere how old the tank was? Did you happen to use dry/dead rock or some sort of man-made rock? What kind of sand do you have - aragonite or silica? Was the sand new or used?

BTW - I don't think that anybody has ever thought that false coral (the leathers) could kill true coral. Most like they inhibit growth, not dead. This was not likely your issue, but it is probably better that they are gone.

 

[szl]

You should not be running GFO unless you have a phosphate issue. Otherwise, you can be starving the coral. If you can starve algae, you can starve diatoms in the coral. You see this a lot where people watch a BRS video about GFO or biopellets and use them from day-one when their tank is nutrient poor and their tank suffers for a long time.

Did you post somewhere how old the tank was? Did you happen to use dry/dead rock or some sort of man-made rock? What kind of sand do you have - aragonite or silica? Was the sand new or used?

That's me, I used gfo from day one. I had algae and was told to use gfo. What you say makes sense.

I did take the LEDs off for a while and it still happened. Tank is a year old, I used dry rock with a couple pieces of live rock from my old tank. Sand is aragonite and is new. Curious, is dry rock better or worse??

 

[jda]

Dead rock is no bargain. It is full of dead junk and bound phosphate that can take year(s) to get out. Until then, it will not act like a very good bio filter and will inhibit a true cycle and any kind of stability since not only does not do it's job but also contributes to the chaos. Who also knows what other kind of junk is in the rocks if it is mined. Basically, the only argument for using it is cost and pest-free, but you will spend more in GFO than the savings and the first frag that you put in the tank on a plug could introduce all of those pests back in. Basically, your tank acts/functions like a new tank for a long time. Some of the locals don't have good results for like two years. Dead/mined rock is a marketing gimmick and NOT good for most reef tanks. There is no substitute for real ocean live rock (pacific is best). In the long run, it is cheaper too.

The algae from day one was being fueled by the decaying rock. Your water probably tested mostly OK from phosphate because the algae was picking it up closer to the source.

New aragonite sand is good. It can buffer and even bind some phosphate, which is what you need. Used sand or silica can cause issues that we don't have to go into now.

My guess is that your tank is still not mature since the inside of the dead rock is still not ready to do it's job, might be letting go of some metal or other substance that will just need time and water changes to get rid of.

I might recommend just keeping up on the water changes and wait. If this batch of SPS die, then try some montis. If they live, then maybe a slimer or something easy. Then, build up from there. I would not look towards any kind of quick fix since you obviously know that there is not one since you tried a lot of them... maybe some kind of metal absorber like Cuprisorb to rule out the possibility that your rock is letting go of some harsh metal, but I doubt that this will work. Eventually, you will get past this. If you do, then tell your story to others so that they don't just watch a BRS video and make the same mistake.

 

[szl]

Dead rock is no bargain. It is full of dead junk and bound phosphate that can take year(s) to get out. Until then, it will not act like a very good bio filter and will inhibit a true cycle and any kind of stability since not only does not do it's job but also contributes to the chaos. Who also knows what other kind of junk is in the rocks if it is mined. Basically, the only argument for using it is cost and pest-free, but you will spend more in GFO than the savings and the first frag that you put in the tank on a plug could introduce all of those pests back in. Basically, your tank acts/functions like a new tank for a long time. Some of the locals don't have good results for like two years. Dead/mined rock is a marketing gimmick and NOT good for most reef tanks. There is no substitute for real ocean live rock (pacific is best). In the long run, it is cheaper too.

The algae from day one was being fueled by the decaying rock. Your water probably tested mostly OK from phosphate because the algae was picking it up closer to the source.

New aragonite sand is good. It can buffer and even bind some phosphate, which is what you need. Used sand or silica can cause issues that we don't have to go into now.

My guess is that your tank is still not mature since the inside of the dead rock is still not ready to do it's job, might be letting go of some metal or other substance that will just need time and water changes to get rid of.

I might recommend just keeping up on the water changes and wait. If this batch of SPS die, then try some montis. If they live, then maybe a slimer or something easy. Then, build up from there. I would not look towards any kind of quick fix since you obviously know that there is not one since you tried a lot of them... maybe some kind of metal absorber like Cuprisorb to rule out the possibility that your rock is letting go of some harsh metal, but I doubt that this will work. Eventually, you will get past this. If you do, then tell your story to others so that they don't just watch a BRS video and make the same mistake.

Thanks jda,

Not that Im doubting you at all, but here is what I have learned. I originally thought that perhaps I did have heavy metals leeching into the water from somewhere. Thats why I sent my water to Triton Labs for testing. It came back negative, that there are not any heavy metals in my tank.

The dry rock I used was Marco Rock, I spoke directly to them about the phosphate issue and I forget their exact process now, but they said that they have a process and explained it to me, that takes all the phosphate out of the rock.

I have a couple of friends who have used the exact same rock and have not had problems in their tanks, thats why I am leaning more to GFO.

I actually didnt have algae from day one, it took maybe a month or two before it hit, I just used GFO from day one because I was told it would help control phosphates when they do come.

I am going to stick with heavy feedings and no GFO, I will definitly keep this up to date and let people know how the battle goes.

THanks alot for everyones input up to this point.

 

[max6297]

You should see a difference by taking the GFO offline.

Keep alkalinity 7.3 - 7.7

Run carbon passively in a sump, only change every 6 weeks.

You may consider only running your skimmer for 12 hours a day for a time.

Perform a 10% water change every other week.

Feed your fish, you need poop!

Once your tank has the proper nutrient levels, try running just cheato in the sump for phosphates. Try keep it as natural as possible. Once your tank reaches a balance it can cycle the excess nutrients and minerals biologically.

 

[rtparty]

Don't listen to the anti-dead rock folks. I haven't been in this hobby as long as some (first tank was started in 2006) but I have setup and run a LOT of tanks. I even worked for a LFS for a while and set up many tanks for them and clients. I have used live and dead rock. In the end, I see no difference in the tanks. I can actually get a tank up and going quicker with dead rock as long as that rock is properly cleaned before hand. ALL tanks, no matter what rock is used, needs time to get fully established. I find it usually takes 6 months before a tank has that "healthy" look to it. During the first 6 months you can still keeps all types of corals if set up right.

Again, dead rock must be prepped properly IME. Those that have issues rarely prepped it properly. I take mine and pressure wash the surface of all the rocks. Then I flip them over and wash them again. Most of the dead sponges and decaying matter will come off with that wash. Next step is to inspect each piece and poke around with a screwdriver. I am looking for soft spots and any matter that didn't come off with the wash. Once all that matter is off, you are usually good to go. I take that rock and set it up in a bin (or the tank if brand new) and let it cure for 30 days or so. Make sure when adding the rock in you swish the rock around so water gets into the inner parts of the rock. I have never seen an issue if dead rock is properly cleaned.

Live rock still has a ton die off in transit and in the tank that needs to be cured in some way. Each way has its pros and cons and you must know what you are getting yourself into.

Back on topic, I still think you are starving the tank so feed a little heavier and see if anything changes. I highly doubt your rock is the issue.

 

[jda]

Marco is not telling you the whole truth. There is no quick process including an acid dip to get the rock free of the crud that is inside of it. An acid dip will remove some phosphate, so that much is true, but it is not a complete truth where much more remains. Regardless of what you have learned in the hobby so far, just know that manufacturers and sites selling stuff are not looking out for your best interests - BRS videos and manufacturer documentation should not be given much heed... they want your money. Treat them like you would treat a guy trying to sell you $30k worth of new windows and he is the one who tells you that they will make your house worth $30K more - this is not true either.

Keep on testing your phosphate. As long as it is below 10 on a hannah Ultra-Low, then let it be. If it starts to climb, then add some so that you get it down a bit but not to zero.

 

[szl]

Well, good news!

Since I have taken my GFO offline, my rocks are covered with nice patches of coraline algae and corals are looking much better! I also dropped my Alk from about 8.5 to 7.5 temporarily, until I get some nutrients back into my tank then I will keep it around 8.

I got a hold of a PAR meter and tested. It was not my lights, in fact I had to lower my lights to get a good reading

Thanks alot everyone for the advice, I will keep updating the thread as things progress.