My 70gal almost-cube rimless tank (Soon to be SPS Dominated)

Not to be a wet blanket, but I think all of this algae growth is unnecessary.

Sure you can let your natural nitrate reduction methods enhance by allowing tons of bacteria to grow and establish in LR and DSB etc... but as soon as you turn that skimmer on all that time you spent, is wasted.

Your Bio-load will be massively decreased once you have the skimmer turned on so a good portion of those bacteria are just going to die off anyways.

The tank will reach homeostasis, and it will go in either direction... (In essence you will be "reverse cycling" once the skimmer is operational)

Also I think there if I understand it correctly it seems like there's some faulty logic... The primary means of nitrate disposal in this situation is not, in fact, bacterial conversion of nitrate into nitrogen gas, rather it's nitrogen fixation and assimilation by the algae, the dissolved nitrates in the water column are being absorbed and used to form the structure of algal colonies you have created. Algae can grow and use this nitrogen much faster than bacteria can, there simply isn't all that much room in a tank even with a DSB for a high level of denitrification to take place. This is why on many established tanks, nitrate spikes are essentially "invisible" with a nitrate test kit, as the algae grows too fast in response to increased nitrate levels and the nitrates in the water column are summarily absorbed and fixed within the algae.

Were the algae to suddenly "die off" as the 12-week cycle theory suggests, it would merely break down the absorbed nitrogen in the algal cells and release them back into the water as ammonia, nitrite, then nitrate again! Once something is physically placed in the tank, it has to be physically removed from the tank as well! The percentage of nitrogen that gets exported as nitrogen gas is incredibly small compared to that which is used by various other forms of life... Most of us don't see how much nitrates get used up because they are consumed by the algae which are in turn quickly consumed by our CUC, or other methods of mechanical or chemical filtration and skimming.

So at the end of the day really I think all you have done here is wasted a lot of time and converted some cocktail shrimp's nitrogen into some algaes nitrogen, the nitrates will only be "removed" from the tank when you finally say screw it and scrape every last hair of that algae of the tank.

I would take any advice given from a supposed "guru" with a grain of salt.

Not trying to be critical, but I felt like this needed to be pointed out.

Otherwise your tank design is impeccable, I love the sump design, inline frag tank, and the the moonlight set up is awesome, I love how it highlights the two islands of rock.
 
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Thanks! I appreciate your info and comments.

There are actually many contradictions in terms of cycling a tank. However, given that I did not use any Live rock or live sand or even cured live rock for that matter, I needed some way to build the bacteria in the substrate hence the shrimp cocktail method. Also I needed some time to let the pods reproduce in the tank and establish the fuge.

Actually started running the skimmer already and will be pulling out the algae manually over the weekend. I know that if the algae dies in the tank it will just release the same nitrates, nitrites, etc into the tank hence I need to pull them out. I just need a lot of elbow grease this weekend to get the tank cleaned up!

Will keep you posted. Thanks again for your comments! :)
 
Well will be using cheato primarily to eat up the phosphate and nitrates in the tank. Regular pruning of cheato will help in the removal of these unwanted nutrients. However, in case that the cheato does not have enough capacity to take out all the phosphates, then that is when I need to use some rowaphos or phosban to remove the excess phosphates in the tank. Right now I haven't actually added any phosban to the tank yet since its still cycling. However once I start adding livestocks (especially fish) im sure that phosphates will eventually creep up. :)

May I just ask what do you think I should do? Do you think I shouldn't add phosban or any phosphate binding media?

I'm not sure I would recommend not running phosban, especially in light of your current phosphates (.5ppm)? You could try using a product containing Lanthanum chloride (Blue Life's phosphate control or Brighwell Phosphat-E) to drop phosphates to zero, then remove algae and start running phosban or just run chaeto. One thing is for sure with Chaeto, you'll need a refugium with excellent lighting and at least 50% of the volume of your tank to outcompete a well stocked, well-lit tank.

I was only suggesting (or thinking out loud) about whether a pathway would develop that would consume phosphate and reduce it to zero. It is possible that because you started with dead rock, you may not have the diversity of organisms necessary for this. Are you seeing lots of 'pods' running around?
 
Not to be a wet blanket, but I think all of this algae growth is unnecessary.

Sure you can let your natural nitrate reduction methods enhance by allowing tons of bacteria to grow and establish in LR and DSB etc... but as soon as you turn that skimmer on all that time you spent, is wasted.

Your Bio-load will be massively decreased once you have the skimmer turned on so a good portion of those bacteria are just going to die off anyways.

The tank will reach homeostasis, and it will go in either direction... (In essence you will be "reverse cycling" once the skimmer is operational)

Also I think there if I understand it correctly it seems like there's some faulty logic... The primary means of nitrate disposal in this situation is not, in fact, bacterial conversion of nitrate into nitrogen gas, rather it's nitrogen fixation and assimilation by the algae, the dissolved nitrates in the water column are being absorbed and used to form the structure of algal colonies you have created. Algae can grow and use this nitrogen much faster than bacteria can, there simply isn't all that much room in a tank even with a DSB for a high level of denitrification to take place. This is why on many established tanks, nitrate spikes are essentially "invisible" with a nitrate test kit, as the algae grows too fast in response to increased nitrate levels and the nitrates in the water column are summarily absorbed and fixed within the algae.

Were the algae to suddenly "die off" as the 12-week cycle theory suggests, it would merely break down the absorbed nitrogen in the algal cells and release them back into the water as ammonia, nitrite, then nitrate again! Once something is physically placed in the tank, it has to be physically removed from the tank as well! The percentage of nitrogen that gets exported as nitrogen gas is incredibly small compared to that which is used by various other forms of life... Most of us don't see how much nitrates get used up because they are consumed by the algae which are in turn quickly consumed by our CUC, or other methods of mechanical or chemical filtration and skimming.

So at the end of the day really I think all you have done here is wasted a lot of time and converted some cocktail shrimp's nitrogen into some algaes nitrogen, the nitrates will only be "removed" from the tank when you finally say screw it and scrape every last hair of that algae of the tank.

I would take any advice given from a supposed "guru" with a grain of salt.

Not trying to be critical, but I felt like this needed to be pointed out.

Otherwise your tank design is impeccable, I love the sump design, inline frag tank, and the the moonlight set up is awesome, I love how it highlights the two islands of rock.

I'm not sure I agree with what you're saying. Notice how high his phosphates are and how low (relatively) his nitrates are. It does seem that the sand bed is contributing appreciably to denitrification, or I would expect higher nitrates.

Also, do you have a source that demonstrates that algal die-off releases ammonia? Do you have a source that demonstrates that algae consume nitrogen faster than bacteria? I believe that not all algae can fix nitrogen. Actually, it might be a minority that do.
 
I'm not sure I would recommend not running phosban, especially in light of your current phosphates (.5ppm)? You could try using a product containing Lanthanum chloride (Blue Life's phosphate control or Brighwell Phosphat-E) to drop phosphates to zero, then remove algae and start running phosban or just run chaeto. One thing is for sure with Chaeto, you'll need a refugium with excellent lighting and at least 50% of the volume of your tank to outcompete a well stocked, well-lit tank.

I was only suggesting (or thinking out loud) about whether a pathway would develop that would consume phosphate and reduce it to zero. It is possible that because you started with dead rock, you may not have the diversity of organisms necessary for this. Are you seeing lots of 'pods' running around?

Yep will be using phosban in the next couple of weeks. Am also growing cheato now in the fuge running on a reverse photoperiod. Started dosing mb7 also to assist me in bringing down the nitrates and phosphates. In addition I also cleaned out the tank (most of the algae) already and added 10 astrea snails to help in the clean up.

Also saw a lot of pods already swimming around in the tank and fuge but I have yet to see those big pods. Right now the pods are still quite small.
 
I'm not sure I agree with what you're saying. Notice how high his phosphates are and how low (relatively) his nitrates are. It does seem that the sand bed is contributing appreciably to denitrification, or I would expect higher nitrates.

Also, do you have a source that demonstrates that algal die-off releases ammonia? Do you have a source that demonstrates that algae consume nitrogen faster than bacteria? I believe that not all algae can fix nitrogen. Actually, it might be a minority that do.

Really, there's no science behind this, you don't know what rate phosphates are being produced/taken up by individual species of alga...

You are making a basic assumption that since phosphates are "higher" (first of all, how can you relate phosphate concentration to nitrate concentration, what is considered "high" to an aquarist has no real bearing on the functioning of a biological system) (Apples to oranges here)

And as far as algal die-off releasing ammonia, well to put it simply, all living things contain an abundance of nitrogen... when anything dies, bacteria break it down into progressively smaller organic components including ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

Matter is never created nor destroyed, if ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/nitrogen is taken up into any living thing, and that living thing dies, it WILL be released (if a mass of cyanobacteria takes up 1gm nitrate), and as such an aquarium is a very closed system with only certain gases being exchanged with the outside environment...

All organisms must fix nitrogen! EVERY LIVING THING FIXES NITROGEN. Whether it's a human being eating a roast beef sandwich, or a plant absorbing ammonia from soil, or cyanobacteria and gha absorbing ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates from the water column in a reef tank.

In fact nitrogen is the most important macronutrient to all photosynthetic organisms.

Source: Anyone with a fundamental understanding of biological systems.
 
Hahahah! Thanks mike! But tank is already ok. Started running phosban and carbon over the weekend. Had to increase alk by dosing buffer since the phosban brought it way down. But already at normal levels now. Also cleaned out the algae already. A friend of mine also gave me a small pocillopora frag to test if it will survive. And so far the frag has extended its polyps. Added 10 Astrea snails for algae control since there are some algae left which I couldn't reach. So looks like everything will be ok. :D
 
Yep! To each his own. All the people I know who have used this method here have been successful. Im not saying that the new methods are not as effective but I have personally seen the stability that comes along with doing the 3 month cycle and I just want to have that in my new tank. :)

Will take pics of the in-line frag tank soon. Will post it maybe over the weekend. :)
I'm old school as well. I've been reefing since the mid 70's. I just setup a new tank this past January and it sat for about three months cycling. The tank is doing very well now and is mostly SPS dominated. To each is own though....that's the great thing about this hobby, more than one way to do things.
 
I'm old school as well. I've been reefing since the mid 70's. I just setup a new tank this past January and it sat for about three months cycling. The tank is doing very well now and is mostly SPS dominated. To each is own though....that's the great thing about this hobby, more than one way to do things.
I also wanted to mention that I did use a skimmer during this process and kept the lights off. I also did regular partial water changes as well.

I never got anywhere near the algae bloom I see in your tank. I firmly believe in using the berlin method of husbandry. It has always worked for me and continues to do so. Good luck with your system.
 
I'm old school as well. I've been reefing since the mid 70's. I just setup a new tank this past January and it sat for about three months cycling. The tank is doing very well now and is mostly SPS dominated. To each is own though....that's the great thing about this hobby, more than one way to do things.

Nice! Yes and I totally agree with you! There are more than one way to reach the same goal! No pics yet! Havent had time to take pics yet! Will take pics soon! :)
 
All organisms must fix nitrogen! EVERY LIVING THING FIXES NITROGEN. Whether it's a human being eating a roast beef sandwich, or a plant absorbing ammonia from soil, or cyanobacteria and gha absorbing ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates from the water column in a reef tank.

I don't want to turn this thread into an argument, but your statement is very misleading. From wikipedia:

Nitrogen fixation usually refers to the biological process by which nitrogen (N2) in the atmosphere is converted into ammonia.[1] This process is essential for life because fixed nitrogen is required to biosynthesize the basic building blocks of life, e.g. nucleotides for DNA and amino acids for proteins. Formally, nitrogen fixation also refers to other abiological conversions of nitrogen, such as its conversion to nitrogen dioxide.
Nitrogen fixation is utilized by numerous prokaryotes, including bacteria, actinobacteria, and certain types of anaerobic bacteria. Microorganisms that fix nitrogen are called diazotrophs.
 
any pictures yet?
Did you chart the NO3 and PO4 during this 12 week period?
That would be interesting to see. I did old school as well with my first tank but used ure ammonia to kick start the process. I did not go as extreme as you did however.

Waffleman
 
No pics yet. Still acclimating some corals to the lights. Will post pics soon. :)

Yeah I charted the no3 and po4 during the 12 week period. However at a certain point a changed test kits because something was wrong with the test kits so Im not sure if the early part of the chart is accurate.
 
New toy finally arrived. :)

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