NickReef17
New member
Amazing forest of frags!
My Acro Nursery
- Thread starter maoiwowie
- Start date
justthewife
New member
How do you get such beautiful colors? I am still new to Acros and only have two 
sh8g8delik
New member
Beautiful Corals maoiwowie! Will you start fragging some of them when it gets a little bigger? I would love to own me some of those for sure. Im a few hours up north from you and wouldnt mind making a trip out of it.
maoiwowie
New member
How do you get such beautiful colors? I am still new to Acros and only have two
Be careful of the many opinions and advice you read on this site. Mine included. Although generally every one means well, every tank is different. I still read thoughtful advice; have a laugh; and always wonder what their tank looks like. I think the best advice is still "have patience." Keeping colorful SPS is a marathon that starts uphill, then plateaus, but never ends. But to answer your question is gonna take some time. Ill try to post more opinion with my photos so you can actually see what im talking about.
sh8g8delik - Of course. But if i can get my actual display built and installed, it could be awhile before im ready to give out frags. Except for the damn plate M. Caps that im growing. They take up too much valuable real estate.
Reefvet
New member
Well said.
I've been keeping SPS for 25+ years and the husbandry has changed some but patience is still key.
Beware of the LED/MH/T5 debate. They all can lead to success.
Do take note that this system is running at near natural sea water alkalinity, calcium and Mg.. Raising alkalinity increases growth significantly and typically reduces color proportionately.
And a FWIW, I've successfully grown a lot of SPS without once measuring potassium. If I have color, growth, for all appearances healthy SPS, then I don't check anything except Alk. Less is more when it comes to testing. It's right up there with patience.
maoiwowie
New member
Yes. I like to document almost everything that goes into my tank. I wasnt always like this as I began my hobby very casually like most everyone. I learned through the years that the better tanks were not accomplished through being casual or lazy. Like any garden, it needs tending to. A coral sps garden needs even more.
I totally agree with Reefvet. When you are just learning you need to test your water and compare it to what you see is going on in your tank. Its not as simple as my PO4 is like that TOTM so I should have the same results. Every tank is different.
Here is an example in pictures what Reefvet touched on. Every tank is different. "Beware of the LED/MH/T5 debate. They all can lead to success."
The following set of pictures is the progression of a frag I bought off "jrpdriver", another member on this site. He uses LED only and when I visited him to pick up some frags, I was amazed at the color and the health of his tank. It wasnt just light manipulation to make corals pop. They were truly colorful. I brought this frag home and it looked like this under my MH.
After 4 weeks in my tank it, it looked like this.
Today it looks like this
His mother colony and beginning frag still looks better. I dont know if the frag I bought will ever get to look like his. It is what it is. MH better than LED? Or vice versa? Every tank is different.
As far as testing goes. I dont test as much for PO4 or NO3 anymore, maybe monthly. But I do still test ALK almost every other day.
I totally agree with Reefvet. When you are just learning you need to test your water and compare it to what you see is going on in your tank. Its not as simple as my PO4 is like that TOTM so I should have the same results. Every tank is different.
Here is an example in pictures what Reefvet touched on. Every tank is different. "Beware of the LED/MH/T5 debate. They all can lead to success."
The following set of pictures is the progression of a frag I bought off "jrpdriver", another member on this site. He uses LED only and when I visited him to pick up some frags, I was amazed at the color and the health of his tank. It wasnt just light manipulation to make corals pop. They were truly colorful. I brought this frag home and it looked like this under my MH.
After 4 weeks in my tank it, it looked like this.
Today it looks like this
His mother colony and beginning frag still looks better. I dont know if the frag I bought will ever get to look like his. It is what it is. MH better than LED? Or vice versa? Every tank is different.
As far as testing goes. I dont test as much for PO4 or NO3 anymore, maybe monthly. But I do still test ALK almost every other day.
maoiwowie
New member
I had patience with my algae problems. As I started collecting frags, the algae hit me and hit hard. It was a punky algae party, but it was alright; valonia, bryopsis, dinos, hair, cyano... you name it. You can barely see the frags it was so thick. So I decided to make PVC platforms. It was just easier to keep the frags clean of the invading algae. And it also allowed the frags to base out. I think i could just attach the PVC somehow to my rockwork later. Might work out perfectly. The PVC is simply a female 1" plug combined with a 1" male plug. Its drilled out on top to fit the actual frag plug and also filled with sand to give it weight. I did lose some frags, but amazingly most survived even as I added frags.
I definitely think the algae problem was a combination of feeding and reusing some old dry live rock accumulated over 15 years of setting up tanks. I didnt even bother to clean/cure the dry rock. It was sitting in the corner of my garage in a couple of plastic garbage cans... and one day I decided I needed more biofilter surface area and just threw them in. So they were phosphate sinks... probably. I know people just advise to "start over". But I decided to be patient. Let the algae party go until they decided it was over. And I knew it was going to take a long time. I made sure to do regular weekly water changes, start vodka/vinegar/zeo, add a refugium, and limit feeding and additives. And I tested my water regularly to make sure PO4 and NO3 were not climbing. Gradually both parameters started to fall. The party started in March and is just now finally clear enough to be presentable. I still have some waiting for last call, but it no longer 'grows' on the eggcrate. And although the algae was an eyesore, it did consume the PO4 and NO3 that might have helped save the frags(?). I do believe phosphate is still in the rock.
I definitely think the algae problem was a combination of feeding and reusing some old dry live rock accumulated over 15 years of setting up tanks. I didnt even bother to clean/cure the dry rock. It was sitting in the corner of my garage in a couple of plastic garbage cans... and one day I decided I needed more biofilter surface area and just threw them in. So they were phosphate sinks... probably. I know people just advise to "start over". But I decided to be patient. Let the algae party go until they decided it was over. And I knew it was going to take a long time. I made sure to do regular weekly water changes, start vodka/vinegar/zeo, add a refugium, and limit feeding and additives. And I tested my water regularly to make sure PO4 and NO3 were not climbing. Gradually both parameters started to fall. The party started in March and is just now finally clear enough to be presentable. I still have some waiting for last call, but it no longer 'grows' on the eggcrate. And although the algae was an eyesore, it did consume the PO4 and NO3 that might have helped save the frags(?). I do believe phosphate is still in the rock.
Reefvet
New member
Any chance you'd care to give us more details on your use of these supplements ?
maoiwowie
New member
I have been in this hobby for 30 years and have killed a lot of living sea creatures through ignorance, laziness, and apathy. But I have learned a lot... still learning.
I consider my system a hybrid as I combine the Zeo method with other methods. I began using zeolites in a Vibe reactor but now use it passively in my sump. I dont see a big difference with using just the reactor. I dont use the full recommended amount for my volume of water either, about 60%. I continue to use V/V as a carbon source, although for my approximate 170+ gallons I only dose about 10ml every other day. I also use Kalk for my top off and a refugium. Both are not needed or recommended with the Zeo method. The kalk is used for increasing PH and and as a quasi boost for alk and calcium in lieu of my calcium reactor. This tank is in my office so weekends its on its own. I have come back on mondays to find the calcium reactor stuck many times with too much gas in the chambers. The tank eats a lot of alk. Maybe that is why i test alk so often. As far as the actual supplements, I have an array from KZ pictured below.
Although I bought the supplements when I started, I quickly figured out that I dont need or use most of them. But again, its not an exact science. I use some of them because I bought them and I probably wont buy them again once exhausted. I do use Zeostart3 (fancy vinegar), Zeobac (fancy bacteria), and AA and Coral Vitalizer (fancy coral food) regularly, although at half the recommended dosage. I also use K-Balance Strong to help keep my potassium at "Natural Sea Levels." If you look to the left, I use syringes to dose in exact amounts and each additive has its own syringe to prevent cross contamination. I keep a calendar app to remind me when to dose and what to dose and record anything i did differently or new. The colors of the corals are improving slowly, but I have seen tanks with better coloring without the use of KZ supplements... I never think anything good will happen quickly only bad, Ill have patience.
One thing id like to mention about all these additives and methods. For me i use them to try to keep my tank at "Natural Sea Levels." It keeps things simple for me. Some threads boast how they can keep color at high PO4 or NO3 levels. Thats great, but why? and so what? And many reefers get confused and ask what they should keep their levels at? Strive for natural sea levels of the location where your corals are found and you cant go wrong. In my experience, Alk is perhaps the only parameter that can be manipulated to the high side... but keep that stable and not too high.
I consider my system a hybrid as I combine the Zeo method with other methods. I began using zeolites in a Vibe reactor but now use it passively in my sump. I dont see a big difference with using just the reactor. I dont use the full recommended amount for my volume of water either, about 60%. I continue to use V/V as a carbon source, although for my approximate 170+ gallons I only dose about 10ml every other day. I also use Kalk for my top off and a refugium. Both are not needed or recommended with the Zeo method. The kalk is used for increasing PH and and as a quasi boost for alk and calcium in lieu of my calcium reactor. This tank is in my office so weekends its on its own. I have come back on mondays to find the calcium reactor stuck many times with too much gas in the chambers. The tank eats a lot of alk. Maybe that is why i test alk so often. As far as the actual supplements, I have an array from KZ pictured below.
Although I bought the supplements when I started, I quickly figured out that I dont need or use most of them. But again, its not an exact science. I use some of them because I bought them and I probably wont buy them again once exhausted. I do use Zeostart3 (fancy vinegar), Zeobac (fancy bacteria), and AA and Coral Vitalizer (fancy coral food) regularly, although at half the recommended dosage. I also use K-Balance Strong to help keep my potassium at "Natural Sea Levels." If you look to the left, I use syringes to dose in exact amounts and each additive has its own syringe to prevent cross contamination. I keep a calendar app to remind me when to dose and what to dose and record anything i did differently or new. The colors of the corals are improving slowly, but I have seen tanks with better coloring without the use of KZ supplements... I never think anything good will happen quickly only bad, Ill have patience.
One thing id like to mention about all these additives and methods. For me i use them to try to keep my tank at "Natural Sea Levels." It keeps things simple for me. Some threads boast how they can keep color at high PO4 or NO3 levels. Thats great, but why? and so what? And many reefers get confused and ask what they should keep their levels at? Strive for natural sea levels of the location where your corals are found and you cant go wrong. In my experience, Alk is perhaps the only parameter that can be manipulated to the high side... but keep that stable and not too high.
maoiwowie
New member
KZ has so many different supplements like Eisen, Jodi, Kaliumiodid-Fluor, Sponge Power, XTRA, XTRA special, B-Balance, Macroelements, and more. I have used and continue to use some of them, but VERY sparingly. I dont want to recommend using these as I cant validate if they do anything. That might be because it takes time to see their effects. Perhaps collectively they do help in subtle ways. If you want more info on these, i would suggest poking around the Zeo site. Can I say that?
Reefvet
New member
After 40+ years in the hobby and successfully keeping SPS for 25+ years I've come to the same conclusion about the KZ supplements. I can't tell you if any of them actually do anything and have stopped using them altogether. To no ill effect.
IF you follow the complete system and strip your water of everything then they are necessary. If not, they're too subtle to accomplish anything perceivable.
And FWIW, the new reverse flow calcium reactors run with a probe monitored by an Apex or other controller offer a great way balance a reef.
maoiwowie
New member
Thanks... Ill check those RO Calcium Reactors out. I even added a second chamber to my existing reactor, but it still acts up...
I do like some of the results I have gotten from some of the aspects of Zeo. The use of zeoliths is simple once you gain some experience. Just dont over do it, is what i learned. I have also stopped using GFO, UV, and Ozone and ill probably never go back. Another thing is no matter what method I choose, there is no magic potion, and nothing makes up for poor husbandry. The money we spend on frags alone should be incentive enough not to be lazy...
For anyone wondering, here is a picture of my refugium. Obviously im not running a sterile environment or ULNS. I started with some Chaeto, but it has been out competed by a kind of caluerpa (racemosa?) that just one day showed up. I do think the refugium helps with the nuisance algae that plagued my frag tank; and gives evidence that there is still a lot of phosphate in the tank or in the rocks (stink rock from garage), even though my testing says otherwise.
One comment about tests and hobby test kits. With experience, we can look at the tank and kinda know whats wrong. But for most beginners we rely on tests. I found that most hobby tests are unreliable. Either my eyes are lame or the tests are lame, but probably both... and I am not happy with that Hanna tester either. When NO3 and PO4 tests show 0, its not. Its probably low, but not 0.
I do like some of the results I have gotten from some of the aspects of Zeo. The use of zeoliths is simple once you gain some experience. Just dont over do it, is what i learned. I have also stopped using GFO, UV, and Ozone and ill probably never go back. Another thing is no matter what method I choose, there is no magic potion, and nothing makes up for poor husbandry. The money we spend on frags alone should be incentive enough not to be lazy...
For anyone wondering, here is a picture of my refugium. Obviously im not running a sterile environment or ULNS. I started with some Chaeto, but it has been out competed by a kind of caluerpa (racemosa?) that just one day showed up. I do think the refugium helps with the nuisance algae that plagued my frag tank; and gives evidence that there is still a lot of phosphate in the tank or in the rocks (stink rock from garage), even though my testing says otherwise.
One comment about tests and hobby test kits. With experience, we can look at the tank and kinda know whats wrong. But for most beginners we rely on tests. I found that most hobby tests are unreliable. Either my eyes are lame or the tests are lame, but probably both... and I am not happy with that Hanna tester either. When NO3 and PO4 tests show 0, its not. Its probably low, but not 0.
ChrisKirkland
Reef and Coral Fanatic
I'll second that. I know what parameters need adjusting just by looking at my reef. For example green film on the glass means my PO4 is elevated. I do test for ALK, I know that if my Alk is good then my calcium is ok also.
Reefvet
New member
GFO should only be needed to get a crisis under control. If you're running it on a regular basis then you're over feeding or have rock leaching phosphates.
UV is only useful for free swimming parasites in fish only tanks. Pointless otherwise, though plenty will dispute that opinion. I was just at one of the largest importers warehouse in L.A. a couple of weeks ago. The only systems using U.V. were for fish only.
Ozone is simply overkill with today's skimmers. It will break down organics so that an inefficient skimmer will remove them but modern skimmers don't need that help. Yes, you water may look clearer, but that's because the organics are just smaller, not gone.
The best you can expect from a hobbyist level test kit is +/- 20% accuracy.
The Hanna is at least consitent and the reason you're getting a 0 reading is because the algae in your system are consuming the nitrates and phosphates before it accumulates in the water column. I too have Racemosa that grew out of rock unexpectedly. If you keep it under control it's a good means of export.
If you haven't read this thread and have a few hours to kill it's worth the time.
maoiwowie
New member
Chris... I rarely test Ca, if my alk is good my calcium is always within limits.
Reefvet - Stopping UV and Ozone is probably the most recent lesson I have learned. Your reasoning and how Zeoheads put it, "the added microorganisms and elements will be destroyed by its use" changed my thoughts. I assumed if they were destroying Zeo elements, they were probably able to destroy other elements. At first i did not want to part with my UV and Ozonator that I spent good hard cash for, but in the end i relented, and my tank improved. Also, if you are relying on GFO, you might have a balance issue with the tank.
I also did come across that thread before. I found it compelling and tried following it, but there is a lot of technical information that I found overkill and eventually lost interest(I was a liberal arts major). The simple question of "where should I try to keep my levels at?" then going through a complicated discourse would make most hobbyist head hurt. The idea of not having to religiously chase numbers is good advice, but also too vague for many. There may indeed be a wide range of levels that home reefs can tolerate and even thrive at, but even that range has its limits. Moreover, we both already know that the balance will only come with patience; and that every tank is different. So when others ask the question, i always say natural sea levels of course, but if your corals look good and your reef is thriving, dont fix it.
I guess my problem with Hanna was the clumsy powder pack. I just didnt like it and was never sure what was stuck inside the package. After being frustrated too many times, I decided on overkill and bought an EPA approved Colorimeter (SMART3) by LaMotte. It can test for everything you can think. Since using the Smart3, i have never had a reading of zero for anything. Its fun to use, but definitely not needed.
Reefvet - Stopping UV and Ozone is probably the most recent lesson I have learned. Your reasoning and how Zeoheads put it, "the added microorganisms and elements will be destroyed by its use" changed my thoughts. I assumed if they were destroying Zeo elements, they were probably able to destroy other elements. At first i did not want to part with my UV and Ozonator that I spent good hard cash for, but in the end i relented, and my tank improved. Also, if you are relying on GFO, you might have a balance issue with the tank.
I also did come across that thread before. I found it compelling and tried following it, but there is a lot of technical information that I found overkill and eventually lost interest(I was a liberal arts major). The simple question of "where should I try to keep my levels at?" then going through a complicated discourse would make most hobbyist head hurt. The idea of not having to religiously chase numbers is good advice, but also too vague for many. There may indeed be a wide range of levels that home reefs can tolerate and even thrive at, but even that range has its limits. Moreover, we both already know that the balance will only come with patience; and that every tank is different. So when others ask the question, i always say natural sea levels of course, but if your corals look good and your reef is thriving, dont fix it.
I guess my problem with Hanna was the clumsy powder pack. I just didnt like it and was never sure what was stuck inside the package. After being frustrated too many times, I decided on overkill and bought an EPA approved Colorimeter (SMART3) by LaMotte. It can test for everything you can think. Since using the Smart3, i have never had a reading of zero for anything. Its fun to use, but definitely not needed.
maoiwowie
New member
This acro nursery is so much easier to maintain. I think part of the reason my colors are pretty good is that I can concentrate on just the acros. I do have fish, but they are of the "boring" variety... damsels and chromises with one clown somewhere in the refugium. In the past I have included anemones, LPS, zoos, exotic fish, etc. Although you can definitely have a thriving reef with everything mentioned, it just adds another level of variation that you must account for, which I eliminated.
By the way, that small yellow chromis is quite the nuisance. If not fed they get ****ed and start picking at polyps. But the blue damsel with the orange belly will eat hair algae. Its not in this photo.
By the way, that small yellow chromis is quite the nuisance. If not fed they get ****ed and start picking at polyps. But the blue damsel with the orange belly will eat hair algae. Its not in this photo.
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