My battle with GHA, my "parameters" and the future: a diary

[ohashimz]

I had a 20 long that was started in 2009. It had maybe 20lbs of rock. In 2014, I started a 300g with this rock and the inhabitants. I purchased maybe 200lbs of fresh off the boat live rock and I cured this in a giant pond liner. Not a real scientific curing process. I did not measure phosphate. I kept heavy circulation kept it in the dark and changed the water every 2 days. I did that for about three months. Then it went into the 300 gallon tank. I ran the 300 gallon like that with bare bottom for a few months. I wanted to make sure that it was stable before I introduced the fish from my old tank. I put sand in the tank in about 2016 to keep certain wrasses.



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Why would you cure a live rocks thu? The whole idea of buying live rocks is to use it without curing.. when you cured the live rocks you killed all the organism on it's, so you better make sure it's no longer leaching po4 before you add it.
There is a high chance your rocks (the old rocks cause they were in old systems and the new rocks cause you cured it that way) is saturated with po4 that's why you do not have detectable po4 in the water column but rocks itself has, so algae grow and live off what's the rocks are leaching. That also light explain why some places there is no algae...

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[Zalick]

Why would you cure a live rocks thu? The whole idea of buying live rocks is to use it without curing.. when you cured the live rocks you killed all the organism on it's, so you better make sure it's no longer leaching po4 before you add it.
There is a high chance your rocks (the old rocks cause they were in old systems and the new rocks cause you cured it that way) is saturated with po4 that's why you do not have detectable po4 in the water column but rocks itself has, so algae grow and live off what's the rocks are leaching. That also light explain why some places there is no algae...

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I liked the rocks, didn't want the organisms on it. Didn't want to introduce any nasty pests. Your points above boil down to: does bound phosphate in rock leach? There is quite a bit of debate around this question.

In my system, this may be happening. However, I have a pile of the same rock in my sump, without light so no algae. If it were leaching large amounts of phosphates, I should be able to see that with my Hanna ULR tester.

 

[ohashimz]

I liked the rocks, didn't want the organisms on it. Didn't want to introduce any nasty pests. Your points above boil down to: does bound phosphate in rock leach? There is quite a bit of debate around this question.



In my system, this may be happening. However, I have a pile of the same rock in my sump, without light so no algae. If it were leaching large amounts of phosphates, I should be able to see that with my Hanna ULR tester.

I think you are mixing things a bit and confusing yourself.
In the sump you do not have light, so even if there nutrients, without light algae will not grow. So just because same rocks do not have algae in the sump it doesnot mean rocks are not the issue.
Am not yet concluding rocks are the issue btw, we need more data and testing to understand exactly what is fueling this algae.
Ine thing for sure, something is fueling this algae, finding it is the key to cure it.
What fuel algae is not only po4.. depend on the algae here is a list of what can cause algae outbreak.
-High Po4/no3
-Silica leaching from types of silicon tubings
-Iron and some metals that can keqch from magnets and or rusted equipments
- light or specific spectrum of light




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[Zalick]

I think you are mixing things a bit and confusing yourself.
In the sump you do not have light, so even if there nutrients, without light algae will not grow. So just because same rocks do not have algae in the sump it doesnot mean rocks are not the issue.
Am not yet concluding rocks are the issue btw, we need more data and testing to understand exactly what is fueling this algae.

What I meant with my sump rock example was this: The same rock is in my sump. If the rock is leaching phosphates, this rock would be leaching phosphates. Since the sump rock does not have algae growing on it, the phosphates leached by this rock would enter the water column v. being consumed by the adjacent algae. If these phosphates are released by the sump rock, in to the water column, I would be able to detect them with my Hanna ULR tester.

Ine thing for sure, something is fueling this algae, finding it is the key to cure it.
What fuel algae is not only po4.. depend on the algae here is a list of what can cause algae outbreak.
-High Po4/no3
-Silica leaching from types of silicon tubings
-Iron and some metals that can keqch from magnets and or rusted equipments
- light or specific spectrum of light

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My PO4 and NO3 are both undetectable, but clearly not 0. So this algae must be able to live on extremely low levels of this.

I have no silicone tubing. And no other obvious sources of silica aside from the sand.

No leaking magnets. But I was running GFO which likely added some iron to the water column.

The algae started with my LED lights..... (I'm not blaming the lights yet....):uhoh3:

 

[mrtint]

Why would you cure a live rocks thu? The whole idea of buying live rocks is to use it without curing.. when you cured the live rocks you killed all the organism on it's, so you better make sure it's no longer leaching po4 before you add it.
There is a high chance your rocks (the old rocks cause they were in old systems and the new rocks cause you cured it that way) is saturated with po4 that's why you do not have detectable po4 in the water column but rocks itself has, so algae grow and live off what's the rocks are leaching. That also light explain why some places there is no algae...

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I have always cured my live rock. For me it's one of the oldest practices around. Gets rid of unwanted hitchhikers. Sponges. Nems. The bacteria living within the rock is what you want. Not the crap attached to the rock. It's been years since I purchased live rock from a fish store but we would have a option of cured or uncured rock. The uncured we would put in trash cans for a couple weeks with airstone and skimmers to kill the bad stuff off. This would keep from ammonia and nitrite spikes.
I personally believe it's the dry rock that is mined from old dry reefs that the phosphate leaches from. This is just a thought. Been in hobby since the 80's. I actually have Hawaiian rock in my tank. I have had it since then (before the reefs were closed off) and have never had a issue with that or any purchased live rock. It's only when I have mixed mined reef rock or manufactured rock that I have developed a algae problem.


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[ohashimz]

I have always cured my live rock. For me it's one of the oldest practices around. Gets rid of unwanted hitchhikers. Sponges. Nems. The bacteria living within the rock is what you want. Not the crap attached to the rock. It's been years since I purchased live rock from a fish store but we would have a option of cured or uncured rock. The uncured we would put in trash cans for a couple weeks with airstone and skimmers to kill the bad stuff off. This would keep from ammonia and nitrite spikes.
I personally believe it's the dry rock that is mined from old dry reefs that the phosphate leaches from. This is just a thought. Been in hobby since the 80's. I actually have Hawaiian rock in my tank. I have had it since then (before the reefs were closed off) and have never had a issue with that or any purchased live rock. It's only when I have mixed mined reef rock or manufactured rock that I have developed a algae problem.


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Then why pay the extra money? Why do not you just get a dead live rocks or dry rocks?
What is the value of buying live rocks if you are killing whatever on it?

Btw I alwayes do dry rocks over the last 13 years for more than 5 systems I always do 80% dry and 20% live from a known system... so I do not want you to think am advocating using live rocks.

This is one of my current 2 systems (3 years old)

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[ohashimz]

What I meant with my sump rock example was this: The same rock is in my sump. If the rock is leaching phosphates, this rock would be leaching phosphates. Since the sump rock does not have algae growing on it, the phosphates leached by this rock would enter the water column v. being consumed by the adjacent algae. If these phosphates are released by the sump rock, in to the water column, I would be able to detect them with my Hanna ULR tester.









My PO4 and NO3 are both undetectable, but clearly not 0. So this algae must be able to live on extremely low levels of this.



I have no silicone tubing. And no other obvious sources of silica aside from the sand.



No leaking magnets. But I was running GFO which likely added some iron to the water column.



The algae started with my LED lights..... (I'm not blaming the lights yet....):uhoh3:

As I said before, if the issue coming from your rocks, gfo will not help. If the rocks are saturated with po4 it will leach very slowly and algae will feed off it.

another helpful data if you can provide:

Do you have algae growing other than on the rocks?

Do you have algae anywhere where there is no light?

Any special characteristics of the algae(color, behavior, cyclic...ect)

Any algae in water column?


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[ohashimz]

One last request:
Can you take pics of the system and the equipment please.
Thanks

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[mrtint]

Then why pay the extra money? Why do not you just get a dead live rocks or dry rocks?
What is the value of buying live rocks if you are killing whatever on it?

Btw I alwayes do dry rocks over the last 13 years for more than 5 systems I always do 80% dry and 20% live from a known system... so I do not want you to think am advocating using live rocks.

This is one of my current 2 systems (3 years old)

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Beautiful tank. Congrats. We all know the work it takes to have great success! Good job.

Curing rock doesn't kill the bacteria within the rock. Most rock we purchase is cured at local fish stores unless you purchase straight from supplier. It's really not important and don't want to get side tracked just want to be clear that cured doesn't mean dead.

I suspect the lighting in this case but am only basing it on the fact that everything else has been addressed


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[Zalick]

As I said before, if the issue coming from your rocks, gfo will not help. If the rocks are saturated with po4 it will leach very slowly and algae will feed off it.

another helpful data if you can provide:

Do you have algae growing other than on the rocks?

Algae only growing on the rocks, and slowly up coral skeletons of my LPS. The LPS grows faster than the algae grows up it.(LPS came from the old tank and didn't have algae previously)
Normal film algae on the sides of tank.
No algae on the sand. (There is some brown spots in the picture above that just appeared. Sand is pretty much clear)

Do you have algae anywhere where there is no light?

No algae anywhere with no light.

Any special characteristics of the algae(color, behavior, cyclic...ect)

Its very fragile and scrubs off easily. Does not feel stiff at all and crumbles when you touch it. It grows in high and low flow areas. If I scrub a rock bare, the algae does not come back quickly, but will come back. If I stop all water changes and scrubbing, the algae seems to reach a maximum length of about 1" and stays like that.

Any algae in water column?

No. Water column is crystal clear.

 

[ohashimz]

Beautiful tank. Congrats. We all know the work it takes to have great success! Good job.

Curing rock doesn't kill the bacteria within the rock. Most rock we purchase is cured at local fish stores unless you purchase straight from supplier. It's really not important and don't want to get side tracked just want to be clear that cured doesn't mean dead.

I suspect the lighting in this case but am only basing it on the fact that everything else has been addressed


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Sorry my earlier write up should have not be generic like that. What I meant to day is the type of the cure.
You are absolutely correct. The problem is how do you define curing. I have seen reefers define bleeching the rocks as curing lol. So I have learned to aleaue assume the worst when I provide advice to reefers ha ha.
Yes, if the curing is just soaking in salt water in dark place waiting for matters to decompose, not all bacterial population will be killed.
But if its bleached, or soaked in fresh water everything alive will be killed and start to decompose.
Remember bacteria require a minimum of specific conditions to keep existing, like light, nutrients, and salt water...
So depend on the "curing" proccess the rock will emerge alive or dead. Filled with nutrients or clean.

My curing is soak in fresh water for 1 month, change water weekly and test po4. Once po4 is none detected, water look and smell good move rocks to dry in sun for 1 week.



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[ohashimz]

Btw if your coral grow well that means you have nutrients and your po4 cannot be zero..just fyi..
Debating how accurate testing kits and how to use them is diffrent topic I will avoid in here)

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[Zalick]

I suspect the lighting in this case but am only basing it on the fact that everything else has been addressed

This is what I suspect and it pains me, having purchased 6 Kessil a360 and now 4 Mitras lx7. I see many successful tanks with LEDs, and it makes me really want these to work.

It also chafes me that the very first tank I started, using power pc lights sitting on top of the glass and brita tap water, I was able to grow coral at a rapid rate, clam from 1" to 5" and never had algae issues. No internet then. No local reefers to talk to. Just a book from the library.

 

[Zalick]

Btw if your coral grow well that means you have nutrients and your po4 cannot be zero..just fyi..
Debating how accurate testing kits and how to use them is diffrent topic I will avoid in here)

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Totally agree. The Hanna ULR is not sensitive enough to detect ultra low levels. And its accuracy is such that .002 can read as 0.

I clearly have phosphates in the water column. I just don't have "excessive" phosphates. My LPS grows like crazy.

When I was running GFO aggressively, assuming that I had excessive phosphates and the algae was miraculously getting to the phosphate quicker than my test kit, my LPS began to suffer.

 

[ohashimz]

This is what I suspect and it pains me, having purchased 6 Kessil a360 and now 4 Mitras lx7. I see many successful tanks with LEDs, and it makes me really want these to work.



It also chafes me that the very first tank I started, using power pc lights sitting on top of the glass and brita tap water, I was able to grow coral at a rapid rate, clam from 1" to 5" and never had algae issues. No internet then. No local reefers to talk to. Just a book from the library.

It's not the light my friend...at least not the only reason... I run 3 hydra 52 hd on 80%+ 6 T5s+4 kessile supplemental.
While light help algae to grow, controlling algae should not be done with light...
If conditions are there, any type of light will help algae to grow. All what light is doing is providing energy for the algae to metabolize the nutrients. Ambient light will be enough for it to keep growing...

Lets just keep digging. We can figure it out.


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[Zalick]

This is one of my current 2 systems (3 years old)

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Yes, beautiful tank!

 

[ohashimz]

Yes, beautiful tank!

Btw am not bragging or anything.
I posted a pic just to show you my system. I personally never take advice from someone before I see their system.
Forums can be dangerous place ha ha...

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[Zalick]

Btw am not bragging or anything.
I posted a pic just to show you my system. I personally never take advice from someone before I see their system.
Forums can be dangerous place ha ha...

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Totally agree!

 

[Zalick]

Btw am not bragging or anything.
I posted a pic just to show you my system. I personally never take advice from someone before I see their system.
Forums can be dangerous place ha ha...

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I looked back through some pictures and I guess this tank setup is [3]5 years old. I found a pick of the tank November 2016, prior to adding my fish and rock from the 20 long. The tank itself is a glass tank. The seams started to fail so I swapped it for an acrylic early this year. When I removed all the rock for that tank swap, I scrubbed the @#$% out of them in brute cans, dunked in clean saltwater, then put back in tank.

 

[ohashimz]

I looked back through some pictures and I guess this tank setup is 3 years old. I found a pick of the tank November 2016, prior to adding my fish and rock from the 20 long.

Am intersted in current. Take your time and send us pictures off:
Display tank
Sump area
Equipments..
Maybe you can add all these pics to the first post to complete the picture...

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