my diy needle wheel dart pump

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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6659744#post6659744 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tigerarmy40
two pumps would be awesome!!! I would love to see that on a skimmer that size!!!
energy and i have discussed that option for the next skimmer. he wants the ability to skim a 5000g system. he dont have plans to up grade the existing system but its nice to have the ability to upgrade with out having to buy a different skimmer.
we are thinking about either a 18" diam or 24" diam skimer body with 1 pump t ostart with and the fittings for the second pump installed on the body. only time will tell if there will ever be a need for that big of a skimmer.
 
well here it is the pic you have been waiting for. for all of you that dont know the system that this is on, here is a pic of the tank. you can find the thread about this system is in the large reef tank section under 1700g sting ray reef.
energysreef29.jpg

testskimmerpics10Medium.jpg

testskimmerpics3Medium.jpg

testskimmerpics5Medium.jpg

testskimmerpics6Medium.jpg
 
there will be tons of new pics of this system in the thread over in the large reef tank fourm.
you will notice the cup was off the skimmer in one of the pics. i had to fix a leak in the wet neck. i chipped the area where it seals the oring to the riser tube. so the cup was off to fix that problem. thats why there is no skimmate in the cup. i feel this skimmer is not performing worth a darn. its all because the riser is way too small dfor the amount of air that is going through it. in time we will fix this problem. its all trial and error. im very happy with the bubble size it seems to be as good or better than when it was running in the shop. i think the steady running has helped to break it in. the skimmate that was in the cup was some nasty sludge that i expected from a skimmer this size. but there is nothing that sets this apart from any other skimmer out there. but this will improve with upgrades to the top of the skimmer. i cheated a little bit. i added a longer feed hose to the pump and placed the pump right where the outputs from the tank drain in the sump. this is to get the highest concentrations of DOC'S possable.
the other thing im happy is the dart pumps overall performance. that baldor motor is running smooth and cool. i was woried about a rise in themature but there is nothing to worrie about there. i can hold my hand there with no problem. i think its running about 110 deg at the most. maybe even less than that. i forgot the temp meter at home.
 
imho you need to run the water level a little higher than you are currently. having the flow from the water input near the water level will cause extra turbulance up there greatly hindering skimming ability. maybe put a 45 or 90 on the end to point it down away from the surface.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6661720#post6661720 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SHARKSRME
imho you need to run the water level a little higher than you are currently. having the flow from the water input near the water level will cause extra turbulance up there greatly hindering skimming ability. maybe put a 45 or 90 on the end to point it down away from the surface.
there is a fitting in there but you can see it through all the bubbles. :D that level was low because we were working on the skimmer. its higher than that normaly.
 
That is one heck of a project you've got there thus far. It looks like it is too tall for the room. :eek: ;)
 
The 'S' curve I am talking about would be two brachistochrone curves joined together in opposing orientation. A brachistochrone is part of a cycloid BTW. The funny thing is that Johan Bernoulli found this curve for other reasons, but thanks to the long line of mathematicians that were due to follow him and his brother Jacob, Daniel Bernoulli later found this curve's importance for fluid dynamics (Daniel is the one that came up with the Bernoilli equasions for fluid dynamics...I think, but I could be wrong because there is a while family of Bernoullis that were all mathematicians, and all had contributions in the fields of physics and fluid dynamics>>>Nicolaus I & II as well ). I just think its kind of funny how much that small group of brothers & sons contributed to calculus (of course, Jacob was hanging out with Newton at the time, and the older brothers were brought up learning from masters like Leibniz, Hook, and Boyle, and many others). In the end, their contributions to fluid dynamics are what makes protein skimmers possible...so if we were to follow the recent happenings of naming machines after their inventors (Durso, Stockman, etc), the protein skimmer should be named a Bernoulli machine.

Anyways, the best way for the bubbles to travel is with a gradual corve inward from the sides, and then another gradual curve upwards into the neck. This prevents 'launching' the bubbles into each other from multiple directions like with a flat sided reducer neck. Euroreef collection necks are a good example of this, and perhaps the reason why ERs and ASMs are 'soo similar' yet the ERs seem to just pull out more gunk.
 
Well if Spazz is not impressed with the skimmer I sure am. Even though the skimmers cone and riser tube is undersized this skimmer is still outperforming my current one. Comparison: My Current skimmer runs 4 sedra 9000's and has 500 mg of ozone pumped through it to increase the performence. The skimmer is throttled back some to give the water more contact time in the chamber to also enhance the efficiency. Spazz's skimmer runs one pump with no ozone at almost half the power draw. I just measured the actual quantity of skimate from both skimmers after closing of the collection cups for 2 hours. My Skimmer - about 1 cup of wet skimate(Tea colored). Spazz's skimmer 7 3/4 cups of wet skimmate with equivalent color. If we put the proper cone and riser we could probably push this up to about 9 cups or better. Their are a few things we can do to this skimmer to make it better and we are currently discussing these. Right now I don't think there is a commercial skimmer on the market that could perform as well with an equivalent energy draw. The efficiency to performance is incredible. We have to check other factors- long term durability, etc ,etc. We are currently discussing building a larger skimmer after we get all the details worked out with this protoype. So far I am very impressed and will keep everyone up to date with the details as much as possible.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6662805#post6662805 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister


Anyways, the best way for the bubbles to travel is with a gradual corve inward from the sides, and then another gradual curve upwards into the neck. This prevents 'launching' the bubbles into each other from multiple directions like with a flat sided reducer neck. Euroreef collection necks are a good example of this, and perhaps the reason why ERs and ASMs are 'soo similar' yet the ERs seem to just pull out more gunk.

you this is a huge factor to the performance of this skimmer. but the big problem is making a cone to fit that skimmer. i have a mold that will make cone to go from 12" diam to 3". but the big problem is the octogon tank. it will always burst bubbles because of the converson to a different shape. this is why we are discussing a new and better design.
i think i will leave the current design alone for the simple fact it will never make a good skimmer. the octogon makes it an un effecient design from the start and there is no real way to fix it with out sticking alot of money into it.
i have a second dart pump sitting on the shelf that i will start converting into a needwl wheel. then work on a body for that new pump. but it still comes down to a new mold for the larger body. i can only make 12" diam cones. i need to have a new mold built for the larger sized cones.
 
Your fabrication success is well deserved. You have taken an idea and really pushed it to a new level. I hope the long term applications work out for this design.

Good luck
Dale
 
So what's the plan? Energy mentioned a larger skimmer, so are you shopping for larger diameter acrylic? Do you have to use Cast acrylic due to the need for strength? Have you started shopping around for a price?

I really think it is neat what you are doing, and hearing that it uses less power is really cool. I know you said the needle-wheel is top secret for now ;) but would you say it is durable or something that will need replacing?
 
Spazz have you thought about using one of these. Their a little pricy but you can get an 18x80 68 gal or a 24x83 129 gal or the 12x63 25 gal. The 129 is $500 but it has the cone already molded in and you can buy the cap for the bottom from them as well then you would only need to make a riser from the cone and a collection cup. I was going to use the 12x63 to build the skimmer for my 250. What do you think?

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/13480/cid/3799
 
HOLY NUTZ!! this is a very very cool project. spazz you have come a long way from making a wet neck for my skimmer! quite the inventor you are

can't wait to see more info
Lunchbucket
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6662843#post6662843 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Energy
Well if Spazz is not impressed with the skimmer I sure am. Even though the skimmers cone and riser tube is undersized this skimmer is still outperforming my current one. Comparison: My Current skimmer runs 4 sedra 9000's and has 500 mg of ozone pumped through it to increase the performence. The skimmer is throttled back some to give the water more contact time in the chamber to also enhance the efficiency. Spazz's skimmer runs one pump with no ozone at almost half the power draw. I just measured the actual quantity of skimate from both skimmers after closing of the collection cups for 2 hours. My Skimmer - about 1 cup of wet skimate(Tea colored). Spazz's skimmer 7 3/4 cups of wet skimmate with equivalent color. If we put the proper cone and riser we could probably push this up to about 9 cups or better. Their are a few things we can do to this skimmer to make it better and we are currently discussing these. Right now I don't think there is a commercial skimmer on the market that could perform as well with an equivalent energy draw. The efficiency to performance is incredible. We have to check other factors- long term durability, etc ,etc. We are currently discussing building a larger skimmer after we get all the details worked out with this protoype. So far I am very impressed and will keep everyone up to date with the details as much as possible.

Shutting down your other skimmer is not likely to happen in the first day. It may take even a couple of weeks. I would not even try to match the consistancy of the skimmate in one to the other. Just try to optimize both and leave it at that. One will shut down eventually. I would even turn off the ozone for now and see what happens to both. I suspect the one with the sedra pumps works pretty well, and so it may take a little while to shut down anyway.

This is pretty exciting I am sure to many of us out with larger size tanks. Look forward to seeing this go week after week.
 
The transition from the octagonal shape to the round riser cone isnt too hard to do. I make ones that go from square body skimmers to round risers.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6667597#post6667597 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Earl87gta
Spazz have you thought about using one of these. Their a little pricy but you can get an 18x80 68 gal or a 24x83 129 gal or the 12x63 25 gal. The 129 is $500 but it has the cone already molded in and you can buy the cap for the bottom from them as well then you would only need to make a riser from the cone and a collection cup. I was going to use the 12x63 to build the skimmer for my 250. What do you think?

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/13480/cid/3799


i have looked at using one of these type of tanks. but have not decided yet which direction i want to go with this. i would like to get the bodys a little wider than 18''. im hoping to go 20'' instead. but these are an option. the first thing i want to fix is the riser size and the twist lock. once we get the basic top figured out then we can work on a new body size.
 
you might want to look into HDPE instead of acrylic like the RK2's use, might save you a lot of money
 
when i give bug ugly an overhaul so to speak i need to be able to view the insides of the main chamber. turbulance inside the skimmer body are a big thing. and being able to adjust for that is only possable with a clear see through body. i also dont like the thought of square because of the amount of air being injected. if the bubbles hit a corner of the square body they might burst being so close to the 13% air saturation. we noticed that affect a little bit when we fisrt started big ugly up for the first time at energys house. but there are alternative ways to use acrylic and still keep the cost of building it down. and still have a tubular body.
i also dont want to go talle i want to go wider. a 20" diam. main body 48" tall is my goal.
 
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