My experience with pH: What I did right and wrong

Don't take it the wrong way but I believe some of the comments are because u seem to be arguing with the advice u have gotten.
Advice is not relevant. I thought I stated clearly his was an event that happened some months ago. The motivation for this thread is to point out that a number of people have reported events that sound very similar to the one I had and were either led down the garden path or insulted, or both.

That may not at all be what u are trying to do.
I am relating a story about some mistakes I made and how I ultimately fixed the issue.

my advise would be to listen to bertoni's comments. Bertoni is one of the most knowledgeable people on the board & if he says something as fact then it is fact.
I always listen to everyone's comments. Furthermore, Bertoni seems to both well experienced and also an urbane, thoughtfull, and helpful individual. I submit he probably deserves high marks all around. Nonetheless, somehow he got the impression I said the dKH was low. I never said any such thing. Although I did not have the ability to measure the alkalinity directly, by concrete inference, we know it was not. Had it been, adding the 8.3 buffer would have raised the pH.

I know u didn't want to hear what mishri posted but that is probably what most people who read this thread thought. Alkalinity is the most important test followed by calcium & mag.
You and he are both missing the point, and all three of you have somehow completely failed to understand what I wrote. Perhaps that is my fault. I will summarize it in three lines:

Alkalinity: Higher than high. Higher than any aqueous solution in equilibrium can be. >12.

Ph: 7.5

CO2: Very, very low

It sounds likely that u had low alk
It sounds like nothing of the sort. The only way it "sounds likely" is if someone assumes without evidence that a low pH means the carbonae hardness must be low or the CO2 must be high, or both. My whole point is this is simply untrue. By rigid inference, the carbonate hardness was above 12.

& between that & a couple other factors caused your issues. Adding the ph buffer raised your alkalinity so by the time u tested it it was back up to a good level.
Then, given the CO2 levels were and are quite low, how is it the pH was at 7.5 when the alkalinity was high?
That ignores the facts as I stated them:

1. More than 50% of the water was replaced with pre-mixed water whose hardness was measured at 11. The pH remained at 7.5.

2. Adding the 8.3 buffer LOWERED the pH from 8.1 to 7.9. Adding additional recommended doses did not raise the pH at all. It remained at 7.9 through many dosing cycles.

3. At this point, precipitates started to form. No precipitate can form in any solution unless the solution is saturated with the precipitate. Ever. Translation: the water was as hard as the 8.3 buffer could ever make it.

4. I switched to NaCO3. The pH dropped to 7.9 and stayed there, again through many dosing cycles. Precipitation of carbonates was so heavy almost the entire front of the aquarium turned opaque white with a heavy layer of hard precipitate.

5. I switched to NaOH, which is what I should have done from the start.

I don't know if that was the case but it seems like there is a good chance it was
It most definitely was not, because the dKH was never low.
 
I'm new to this forum and I've also joined a Facebook page (both this forum and the Facebook page seem to be predominant of American and Canadians) and I am Australian. The interesting thing I have noticed more so on the Facebook page (just quietly the larger amount of stupidity on the Facebook page compared to general knowledgeable people on this forum) the severe care for ph. The way I was taught to reef originally many years ago was ph super important. Then it was keeping alkalinity, calcium, mag, salinity, oxygen and temperature were the main things alongside nitrate and phosphate. And ph was something we just completely forgot about and nothing bad happened and the way it was explained to me was simply that if my alk and oxygen was stable and fine than ph would never be an issue. And to run my thoughts around in circles again mostly on the Facebook page I see people chasing a ph and doing all these crazy things.

Long story short ph is obsolete at least in my local circles and on the interwebz I've been seeing a lot of craziness in chasing a ph and probably throwing everything else out of wack in the process


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I'm new to this forum
So am I, but welcome, mate! I would dearly love to visit your magnificent country and dive the Great Barrier Reef. I might not come home.

the severe care for ph. The way I was taught to reef originally many years ago was ph super important.
Well, it is. In aqueous solutions, pH / pOH is the driving force behind the speed with which all ionic reactions occur, or whether they occur at all. The problem, for the aquarium enthusiast, is the pH can suffer wide swings in a very short time due to environmental factors that can and do change on an hourly basis, or even less. The aquarium enthusiast is generally much better suited to try to target more stable metrics so as to provide a metastable environment. Some of the folks here have assumed I did not know this. Why they did so, I have no idea. One should never assume anything, at least not without specifically documenting the assumption. If any proof is incorrect, it is usually because one or more of the postulates is incorrect.

Then it was keeping alkalinity, calcium, mag, salinity, oxygen and temperature were the main things alongside nitrate and phosphate.
O2 also quite normally varies throughout the day, as does CO2. The "trick" if you will, is to try to arrange it so both are continuously near optimal levels throughout the day. The bottom line is one should not be continually messing with the aquarium environment. It is often going to wind up doing more harm than good. This is why focusing on more generally stable parameters is a good idea. What's more, some of them do affect pH, and keeping them in an optimum range will go a long way toward keeping the pH range within tolerable parameters. Note in the wild, the pH is ordinarily much more stable, although even there it fluctuates a little daily. It is one of the parameters we evaluated very closely when I was part of a scientific team evaluating the health of the marine environment and the impacts of certain activities in the Gulf of Mexico.

And ph was something we just completely forgot about and nothing bad happened and the way it was explained to me was simply that if my alk and oxygen was stable and fine than ph would never be an issue.
The first problem is, this is not always true. I submit the second problem is a number of people have it ingrained in their minds it must always be true.

It is about buffering. What is a chemical buffer? It is a substance which, when added to an aqueous solution, prevents the pH of the solution from changing as much when other chemicals are added as much as it would when the same amount of said chemicals are added to pure water. Buffers are usually created by adding a weak acid or a weak base along with one or more of its salts to the initial reagent solution. Then, when an acid or a base, even a strong acid or base, is added to the solution, the pH change is far, far less than that of adding the same amount of the same chemical to pure water. The term "water hardness" is very loosely used to cover a number of quite different situations, but generally speaking, hard water is fairly heavily buffered, and so it has a much more stable pH than pure water.

What that means for the aquarium enthusiast is harder water in general is going to have a much more stable pH. With that in mind, keeping a handle on alkalinity will reduce the swings in pH for a given change in constituent bases and acids, and consequently keeping an eye on dKH will USUALLY, indeed almost always keep pH in line. The problem here is "almost always" is not the same as "always". It would seem many people also fail to realize "in every case I have seen" is not the same as "always", either.

And to run my thoughts around in circles again mostly on the Facebook page I see people chasing a ph and doing all these crazy things.
Back in the 70s, I was having a conversation with an Oceanographer friend whose job was maintaining a large number of marine aquaria for his department in the university. I had one 30g fish-only aquarium in my apartment. When I would come back from sea duty, I would sometimes being back one or two specimens with me. It was often a chore keeping them alive. His response was, "It's really amazing any fish can ever survive in an aquarium." Fortunately, life is pretty tough.

Long story short ph is obsolete at least in my local circles and on the interwebz I've been seeing a lot of craziness in chasing a ph and probably throwing everything else out of wack in the process

Like I did. As I said, I rather panicked, and not having enough of the right chemistry tests to hand, I did the wrong thing. Had I known the hardness was already high, I would never have added more 8.3 buffer. I would have gone straight to vinegar, and then to NaOH as soon as I could get some, which would have been four days. Note the problem as far as the sick fish were concerned was indeed pH, but the root cause was not low alkalinity, as I incorrectly surmised. Basically, I was guilty of the same assumption others here have made: low pH is the result of low alkalinity.
 
so.. what I got from this was OP didn't run all of the recommended tests-too focused on ph
No, I was not too focused on pH. I simply did not have the tests available to me, nor were they going to be available for several days. No matter how much they are recommended, no one can run tests they do not have available.

.. did a bunch of things that likely messed with his chemistry.
Not likely at all: absolutely certain, although it was not a bunch of things. It was just two, or really just one. I was trying to raise the alkalinity. It was already too high.

and eventually ran the tests he should have.. and now everything is working once he got his parameters back in line.. cool beans.
The other way around. I was able to run the tests after I had already realized the solution. They confirmed what I had already realized.

No, thanks, I don't drink.
 
And I know your probably feeling a bit attacked ATM. But given what you know now would you have all your test equipment ready in the future? I mean and not trying to be a *****. But I have never started a tank without having every important test kit.


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No, I was not too focused on pH. I simply did not have the tests available to me, nor were they going to be available for several days. No matter how much they are recommended, no one can run tests they do not have available.





Not likely at all: absolutely certain, although it was not a bunch of things. It was just two, or really just one. I was trying to raise the alkalinity. It was already too high.





The other way around. I was able to run the tests after I had already realized the solution. They confirmed what I had already realized.





No, thanks, I don't drink.



Time to start?


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