Need ALOT of help.

[Constantin]

Please note that if this post isn’t in the right forum, please let me know or move it.

Let me introduce myself by saying that I am total new to SW. Never had a SW tank. The only information I have regarding SW/Reef is what I managed to learn reading various forums.
After keeping planted tanks and discus for a little while I decided to replace my 240g discus planted tank with a 300ish Reef.
I have done a lot of reading, and I think I know the basics of what makes a reef tank successful, but I don’t have experience with the practical implementation of things.
I will attach pictures of the current 240 tank that is going to be replaced with a new reef tank.
Even though I am new to this hobby in general(less than a year), I learned a lot in the process and successfully keep 2 high tech tanks. I think I have the technical ability to set up a well functioning Reef, and have experience with plumbing, automated water changing, top offs ect. I have recently set up a high-tech 60g rimless cube with a closed loop dart gold Co2 injection, ect.

I do have a lot of questions though, so I will get to it. The more advice I get better .

Here is what the set up going to be like -
a 72(this is the max I can go)x30x30 - here comes the first question, I can get a 30 or 36 tall for the same money, but I am concerned 36 is just too deep, I see most people that keep SPS don’t go taller than 30, what do you think?
The tank is going to be on a 30" stand, and I plan on having the sump and everything else in the basement, just below.

#1. Overflow size - I Plan on having 2 corner overflows, with wide openings, and a 1.5" or 2" bulk, with 1" return, I don’t know whether it’s a good idea to make a durso for a 2" bulk though, or how much flow should I aim for... I will have a closed loop as well, with oceans motions 4 way.

#2. Sump. I have never had a sump, always closed loop. I am pretty much clueless as to what would make a good larger sump(I don’t even know how large it should be, I estimate around 70-100 gallons), some pointers would be great, I didn't see any larger sumps offered for sale so I guess I need to go with custom made. A lot of people here like filter socks, so it might be a good idea to have a sump with openings for filter socks, but I don't understand why not just use a closed loop with a couple of good mechanical ply filters(such as OC or Pentair modules), they are more efficient and less servicing needed.


#3.Skimmer - from what I read, this has got to be the best you can afford - so ATB or Bubble King - which would you recommend?
Also, they come in an internal and external version - it seems that most people here get the internal one. It would seem that an external one is neater and offers easier servicing, ect. Is there a reason why people prefer the internal one, other than the fact that its one less bulkhead in the sump?

#4. Calcium reactor - I guess I need one, not sure which one is good though, I already have a CO2 tank, with regulator, ph controller ect. Deltec? Do many people here use the Balling Method? It seems easy enough, but at the same time, it would seem that a reactor is the most fool proof method of making sure your Ca levels are where they should be. Besides, cost wise, a decent reactor costs around what a good dosing pump does.

#5. Lights - this is a very hard thing for me to decide one. I will attach a picture of what the tank currently has, but basically its 2 T5 units, idividual reflectors with moonlights. Each one has 6x80w T5 for a total of 960w. I'm pretty sure that T5 aren’t great when it comes to a 30" deep tank, so I thought of spacing them out a bit and adding a 250x3 MH fixture in the middle, that should give a lot of light. But the electric company will love me to death or bankruptcy...
I could get a new fixture, but that would be throwing $1000 on the 2 existing ones... I just don’t know how effective the t5s are at that depth. Most people seem to think that MH are the best at penetration, but I have read other studies showing otherwise.

Also, I noticed a lot of people here use Schd 80 plumbing. What is the reason behind that (other than for bulkheads)? Also, where do you get the parts? Online would suck because there are a lot of times when you need something you hadn't planned on.

Thanks a lot to everyone who is going to help me out, you know I need it!

P.S. I'm going to post a couple of pictures of the 240g planted discus tank that this tank is going to replace so that you have a better idea.

 

[wmilas]

I'll answer one small part: the SCH80 plumbing is only necessary for high pressure (not our hobby) or in places where a part is under physical stress, or has a mechanical aspect that you want to last longer before failure. SCH80 also flows a slightly larger volume of water (typically) than SCH40 because the inside corners are usually not as sharp.

So what does this mean: some points:

*1 The only place you NEED (or at least should use, you don't even need) SCH 80 parts are on valves 1.5" or greater. This is because of the true unions built in, along with the mechanical aspect. This is one place where skimping probably isn't a good idea.

*2 You can use sch 80 bulkheads but if any stress (the reason for using them) is placed on the bulkhead they will most likely leak anyways and require a dab of silicone. IMHO Sch 40 bulkheads are fine, but you will most likely will have to silicone them. SCH80 bulkheads require a larger hole. If you are ok with teh larger hole and want to spend the extra money, go ahead and use sch 80.

*3 Using sch80 piping is very expensive on a larger tank with longer runs. The PSI rating of the sch80 is wasted and the flow argument doesn't hold up because using one size larger of sch 40, will be much cheaper and flow more water. The only reason to use sch80 pipe and fittings is because they are grey and match everything else, and because it looks good. If you have little plumbing then go ahead and feel free to use it if you wish to spend the money.

Savko is a good online place to buy sch80 stuff. You should be able to find sch40 parts ate your local box store, and some sch 80 (most likely not bulkheads or larger valves) too if you are lucky.

 

[Constantin]

Thanks for confirming what I had thought. I have done my share of plumbing and you can buy true unions at Lowes that are schd40 that seem to be just as good to me, but still, SO many people do all their plumbing with schd 80 on these forums... most systems have pressures up to 15psi, if that much.

Oh well... what about the other stuff ?

 

[Constantin]

Ok, I managed to clear some of my questions.
A couple of key issues remain -

Alot of people go with filter socks, I was wondering whether they can be replaced by a mechanical pleat module(OC, NC or pentair) on the closed loop, or would you still advise on designing a sump with sock holders?

I have my tank planned and I know who is going to make it. Provided the tank does not cost me more whether its a 30 or a 36" tall, would you go with 36" for an SPS tank? I plan on having 6 80w t5s in the front, 250wx4 HQIs in the middle and another 6 80w t5s in the back. total of 2000w, but I am not sure I will have enough penetration... What would you advise?

since my sump and all the other equipment will be in the basement, I think an external skimmer is what I should go with. But how much more efficient an external setup is vs internal?

The input from all you exprienced reefers is greatly appreciated!

 

[Lowredranger]

I would probably just do 4x400w halides and just a couple of the T-5's in the front and back for supplemental lighting.

 

[Constantin]

I already have the 2 t5 fixtures, dont want to throw them away, what about depth of 36? too much?

 

[FishTruck]

What corals do you want?

I would stick with your current lights for starters.

You can put SPS near the top. Awesome lower light corals, like aussie acans, other LPS will do great in the lower regions of your tank. If you want clams on the sandbed or primarily SPS, you will need metal halides though. New lights are an easy upgrade to do later... so focus your cash and brainpower elsewhere for now.

Regarding the skimmer, look hard at the Reeflo Orca. That can save you enough money to buy new lights or other great equipment.

I use a GEO calcium reactor on my 500 gallon system and it works great.

One critical question... where do you plan to put the equipment? Space can become THE issue if you plan to put it under your stand.

When planning your sump, list the available space. Then equipment you plan to use. Closed loop versus powerheads. Heating, cooling, bubble control, pump fed skimmer versus gravity fed skimmer, in sump skimmer versus stand alone skimmer. Leak control. Overflow and backsiphoning issues for when your pump turns off for starters. Refugium or no refugium? Auto topoff and fresh water supply. Water change assistance strategies.

Also, don't forget to plan for the multiple cords, outlets, wires, controllers, etc... These take space and good planning for easy access.

The other critical aspects are managing heat and humidity. You probably have a pretty good feel for that though with your current planted tank. Which, by the way, is awesome.

Make sure to take your time and enjoy the planning process. You will get lots of good advice in this forum.

 

[tolthoff]

Good luck with your new build!! I'll be following along... I have a few comments/opinions to share, as I am working on a 240g reef with a similar setup to yours. I also plumbed mine to the basement and use reeflo hammerheads for the return and a closed loop system.

-I would recommend that all your bulkheads and plumbing be 1.5". It just makes things easier and will provide good flow volume. I used 1.5" for the drains (to sump) and 1" for return (to display tank) and closed loop, and wish I had more flow.

-I would recommend as large a sump as you can fit/afford. I have a 2 sump system. I use a 70g stock tank (Menards) connected to a custom built 65g acrylic sump by (2) 2" bulkheads with valves. Water flows from my display into the stock tank, then through the bulkheads into the acrylic sump. It goes through the bubble trap and finally to the return. This setup virtually eliminates all microbubbles. Plus, most detritus and waste ends up in the first tank, which is filled with live rock.

-I use an internal skimmer positioned in the second sump tank. Water is pumped into the skimmer from the first sump tank, and then out of the skimmer into the return section of the second sump. For me, an internal skimmer is great because it eliminates a bulkhead and I don't worry about leaks. It also keeps things a bit more condensed, as space is always an issue.

- I don't use a calcium reactor at this time. I may in the future, but I haven't started with stony coral yet, which brings me to my next point...

- I am going with LED lighting, but can't afford the fixture right at the moment. I really like the LED technology and the fact that it won't heat the water. My 125g fOWLR tank requires a chiller and I don't want to use one on my reef.

- I really like my 30" tank height. Any deeper and I wouldn't be able to clean the glass all the way to the sand. It is also better for lighting purposes. I really with I could have gone 30 or 36" tank depth (from the wall), but my room wouldn't allow it.

I hope this helps, at least a little.

 

[Constantin]

tolthoff

Quick question -
you are saying that you would like all your plumbing to be 1.5" instead of intakes of 1.5 and returns of 1"?
For overflows, most flow is limited by incoming water, - so bigger drain in overflows would help.
For closed loop - How many return lines do you have and are you using an oceans 4 motions?
I was planing on a 2"drain and 4 1" returns, the 4 motions opens up 2 at a time, which I thought would give me enough return.

Are you happy with the hammerheads, not too noisy from the basement?

How much light do you have?(I know LED is different, but what would be an equivalent)

I am trying to custom make or find a 100 to 120g sump, and then add another refugium to it later(I could even build one myself.

 

[Constantin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13642044#post13642044 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FishTruck
What corals do you want?

I would stick with your current lights for starters.

You can put SPS near the top. Awesome lower light corals, like aussie acans, other LPS will do great in the lower regions of your tank. If you want clams on the sandbed or primarily SPS, you will need metal halides though. New lights are an easy upgrade to do later... so focus your cash and brainpower elsewhere for now.

Regarding the skimmer, look hard at the Reeflo Orca. That can save you enough money to buy new lights or other great equipment.

I use a GEO calcium reactor on my 500 gallon system and it works great.

One critical question... where do you plan to put the equipment? Space can become THE issue if you plan to put it under your stand.

When planning your sump, list the available space. Then equipment you plan to use. Closed loop versus powerheads. Heating, cooling, bubble control, pump fed skimmer versus gravity fed skimmer, in sump skimmer versus stand alone skimmer. Leak control. Overflow and backsiphoning issues for when your pump turns off for starters. Refugium or no refugium? Auto topoff and fresh water supply. Water change assistance strategies.

Also, don't forget to plan for the multiple cords, outlets, wires, controllers, etc... These take space and good planning for easy access.

The other critical aspects are managing heat and humidity. You probably have a pretty good feel for that though with your current planted tank. Which, by the way, is awesome.

Make sure to take your time and enjoy the planning process. You will get lots of good advice in this forum.

Fishtruck, thanks for the comments -

What do you think of a tank depth of 36? too much? I really dont think the current light I have would give enough light at the first 15" from bottom. The fixtures I have will be hanging from the ceiling, and I would really rather rehang them BEFORE I have saltwater in the new tank(I will need to rehang existing fixtures too, since they are too much to the middle right now).

My entire setup will be in the basement(except for tank and lights obviously). I have had it with not being able to work on anything because its inaccessable - take a look at the plumbing of my hightech planted 60g cube, and thats without any of the controllers in place.(this is inside a 24x24x46 stand, with a dart gold squeezed in the back).

That was just a pain to fit it all in a way where you can swap everything out if you need to and for the plumbing to be efficient!


I wanted to do a gravity fed external skimmer, it would seem that it makes more sense for a larger setup when space isnt a problem.

For saltwater storage I plan on having 80 gallon drumps, 1 for RO water and another for mixing fresh saltwater.

Leak control is rather easy, since its an unfinished basement - if it leaks, its just going to end up in the basement sump, and pumped away.
One thing I am not familiar with is bubble control - I have never had a sump setup.

Stand alone refugium will come in later - for now, I need to either build a custom sump, or buy one, we will see.

Skimmer - I really dont want to save money on this one, rather get a very good quality skimmer, ATB or BK, maybe H&S.

 

[sltloser]

IMO i think that you should go with a BK internal skimmer, they are very nice skimmers on large tanks. If you look at the North Dakota Mini ocean thread he has a BK300 and 200 in his 600 gallon. Obviously you would be able to just get away with the 300, but my point is that it is a work horse, i have helped work on this tank and have seen it in action. it is by far the best skimmer i have ever seen. the nice thing about having an internal skimmer is that you are able to dump one of your overflow right next to the skimmer that way you are able to skim all that water, and not have to worry about the skimmer overflowing and dumping out half your tank into the basement. As far as high i think that you should go with the 30" tank becuase you will be able to get better light penetration to all your corals. This will also let you place corals almost anywhere in the tank and not be restricted to having just your sps on the top. I like your idea of saving the light fixtures you have and just adding some 250 watt lamps, for those i would use the lumenarc reflectors along with icecap ballasts, these are electrically very efficient and don't produce much heat. Personally i would recoment you put in a refugium right away, the biological filtration that goes on inside a refugium is priceless in my experience, i run a 75 without a skimmer and it works and looks great i have no nitrates and i haven't done a water change in about a year and a half all i have to do is add top off water. The nice thing about the SCH80 is that it is gray and looks much better on tanks than the white does that's the biggest difference i've seen. Hope this helps some!

 

[tolthoff]

you are correct, if I could rebuild my system, I would have (2) 1.5" drains per overflow to my sump (4 drains total). The 1" outflows to the display tank have worked out fine, although I did use 1.5" PVC for all plumbing up to the bulkhead.

I am not using the oceans 4 motions device. Instead, I plumbed a simple closed loop with outflow (from display tank) via (2) 1" bulkheads about 4" from the top of my tank, in the corners. These combine and extend to the basement, to a hammerhead pump, then back upstairs to (2) 1" outputs in the bottom of my tank. The outputs are baffles integrated into my live rock support structure to provide 8 total 3/4" outputs in different directions at different heights inside the tank (all masked by the rock). This is where I wish I would have used 1.5" bulkheads instead of 1".

The hammerheads have worked out great, for the most part... They are very powerful!! Both my main and closed loop systems have about 15 feet static head. My closed loop pump is very quiet and runs at full volume. However, my main return pump is too powerful and will overflow the display tank (hence my desire for more drains). I have to valve it back to about 1/2 output, and recycle some of the water back through my sump! When "valved-back", the pump makes a bit of noise. I may actually try moving the pump to increase the head pressure and hopefully allow it to run at full volume. I can hear the main pump on my first floor, directly above it, but it's still pretty quiet. (my wife hasn't complained about it!)

I'm still researching the LED lighting. I am most interested in the aquaillumination product at this time, but it's a very expensive fixture. I will post again, if I can find some output figures and compare it to metal halides, but please understand, I currently have no personal experience with them. Thanks.

 

[Constantin]

Ok, here is a sump design I came up with based on dimensions of a 100g sump I think I might be able to buy cheaply. critique please.
Several minor things are missing such as holes for calcium reactor, ect, but that doesnt matter at the moment.
I expect flow to be around 2000gpm, but refugium will have ball valves to throttle back the flow.
Holes for bulkheads are not the exact dimension they will be - I dont know what the cut out sizes are exactly for bulks, but will find out.
I need opinions on the general set up. Skimmer most likely external, but I left enough room for skimmer or anything else I put in there such as rocks. This design also allows for a sand bed in the refugium.

 

[FishTruck]

For 36, you will probably need some metal halides... and really, 400 watts. For 30 inches, you can get by with your T5s, just put lower light corals on the bottom. My tank is 30 inches and at 6 foot 3, I struggle to get my hand to the bottom. Not a huge deal.. but that extra six inches will come with some pain.

Are you keeping the open top design like your current tank or building a canopy? If you are going with an open top, 36 inches deep, I would look into some new lights. A MH / T5 combo fixture will do you well. Try sfiiligoi, geissman, ATI.

If money is no object, I bet you will be very happy with a BK skimmer. If you are choosing between a BK and new lights for a 36 inch deep tank.... get a reeflo orca and spend the money on some new lights. Take some time to plan your gravity feed. You will want some sort of standpipe that feeds water at a constant pressure with no air mixed in to your skimmer. Just running an outflow to your skimmer often will not work (been there).

With your sump, you have two filter socks. A main chamber. Then, the flow splits to go through, and around your refugium. Make sure you don't end up with a waterfall here, or you will have new bubbles. So be safe, you might have your bubble trap at the end.

 

[Constantin]

FishTruck -
What do you mean by planning my gravity feed? I was going to just do 2" bulk with a durso from one of the overflows, what else can I ?
I intended to keep the t5s I have and add either 250wx4 or 400wx4, what is better, I'm leaning towards the 36 now...
Do people really snorkle? I know they do in bigger tanks, kinda makes sense.

I can just add a couple of baffles in that narrow channel.

Thanks alot.

 

[FishTruck]

If your gravity feed dumps in that way, you may get air and water gurgling into your skimmer, which can disrupt the foam production in needle wheel skimmers.

 

[FishTruck]

See how tagareef gravity feeds his skimmer. There is a 2 inch wide pipe, then a gate valve with places for water and vented for air to run off higher on the pipe. This way, it maintains a constant column of water going into the skimmer with a mechanism for air to escape. Basically, you just need a gate valve and a "T" added to what you probably have in mind.

Full disclosure, I tried to do what you have planned and had trouble with the water level going up and down, and burping bubbles. I gave up and added a second pump to feed my skimmer. If I get the energy... I will plumb it like in the link below.

Scroll about half way down until you see the blue standpipe.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1172064&perpage=25&pagenumber=36

 

[Constantin]

Ok, so you think the vented cap will help out? I will actually have 2" returns from the overflow, I was thinking of skimming just one of them, ... the skimmer can only handle so much, correct?
Fishtruck, maybe you can help me with my light dillema. Most people here seem to think that 3x400hqi will give me more penetration than 5x250, I cant see why, it would seem to me that the 5x250 will give better spread and good light