Patrick Cox
Active member
Thanks, I am planning to add another fish. On the pods, would it be helpful to buy a bag of live copepods and just add them to my tank?
Need Help Please with my SPS Tank - Losing Some Corals
- Thread starter Patrick Cox
- Start date
Thanks, I am planning to add another fish. On the pods, would it be helpful to buy a bag of live copepods and just add them to my tank?
dkeller_nc
New member
You original post says "6 small fish" - what kind of fish? With certain species, you can get away with just dumping a bag of pods into the tank after lights-out. With certain other species, it's a bit of a waste of money - they will annihilate everything you put in the tank within a few hours.
Patrick Cox
Active member
2 Percula Clowns
1 Mystery Wrasse
1 Blackline Blenny
1 Yellow Assessor
1 Neon Goby
Getting ready to add a Kaudern's Cardinal - one or maybe a bonded pair.
Thanks!
dkeller_nc
New member
I think your wrasse will probably hunt out and consume a bag of pods within a day or so. You might need to add some live rock to your sump or set up a genuine refugium if you want to establish a pod population.
In my case, I decided to culture pods outside of my DT. It was just way too easy to set up some plastic 2.5 gallon Lustar tanks I had left over from freshwater days, stick an airline into each, and add pods and phytoplankton.
It's quite addictive in it's own right - I have 4 different species going at present, and each tank generates a few hundred pods a week to put into the DT to feed a couple of pipefish.
In my case, I decided to culture pods outside of my DT. It was just way too easy to set up some plastic 2.5 gallon Lustar tanks I had left over from freshwater days, stick an airline into each, and add pods and phytoplankton.
It's quite addictive in it's own right - I have 4 different species going at present, and each tank generates a few hundred pods a week to put into the DT to feed a couple of pipefish.
Patrick Cox
Active member
What do you need to raiase pods? Could I use my QT tank? (No medication.)
dkeller_nc
New member
Sure, any old water container will do (including old 5 gallon buckets). All you need is the initial culture, an airline, a way to hold it down, some seawater (preferably sterile new seawater, but you can use water-change water), and some phytoplankton to feed them.
In my case I use plastic pipettes with a bit of rock fixed to the ends with plastic bread ties for the air bubbler. I use a Coralife Luft pump and an air distribution manifold for the air supply. I do have a cheap 10 watt 3700K LED light in an $8 clamp-on reflector for light because I culture live phytoplankton and want it to last longer in the copepod tanks, but light isn't absolutely required - you can just use PhytoFeast or some other algae source.
The copepods I culture are the harpatocoid Tigriopus californicus, Tisbe biminiensis, and "Tangerines" plus the calanoid Arcatia tonsa. The same set-up can be used to culture marine rotifers, which I feed to my reef tank about every 3 days 9rotifer cultures are a lot more prolific than copepod cultures).
In my case I use plastic pipettes with a bit of rock fixed to the ends with plastic bread ties for the air bubbler. I use a Coralife Luft pump and an air distribution manifold for the air supply. I do have a cheap 10 watt 3700K LED light in an $8 clamp-on reflector for light because I culture live phytoplankton and want it to last longer in the copepod tanks, but light isn't absolutely required - you can just use PhytoFeast or some other algae source.
The copepods I culture are the harpatocoid Tigriopus californicus, Tisbe biminiensis, and "Tangerines" plus the calanoid Arcatia tonsa. The same set-up can be used to culture marine rotifers, which I feed to my reef tank about every 3 days 9rotifer cultures are a lot more prolific than copepod cultures).
smokenax
Member
I would start slow ,don't rush it.
If you decide to add fish do one every two
Weeks, plus don't start dumping supplements
And food like crazy,it sounds like you need
More bio load,I would add some live rock to
Seed that dry rock.not to much just a couple
Of small pieces that have been in a mature
System.
If you decide to add fish do one every two
Weeks, plus don't start dumping supplements
And food like crazy,it sounds like you need
More bio load,I would add some live rock to
Seed that dry rock.not to much just a couple
Of small pieces that have been in a mature
System.
Patrick Cox
Active member
Thanks. How will adding more mature rock help?
Patrick Cox
Active member
Still curious about the answer to this question. Many people start tanks with dry rock to avoid unwanted pests.
Also, I am wondering if I should remove my filter sock? When I started this tank, I put out a poll on mechanical filtration and something like 90% of the voters selected a filter sock over a sponge filter or other/no filter.
Thanks.
dkeller_nc
New member
Truly live rock has an abundance of creatures on it, and the biological diversity of a tank started with all air-freighted live rock is much greater than a tank started with dry rock. Many of these creatures spawn and release eggs/nauplii that coral will feed on, or serve as coral food themselves.
However, as you noted, it's also possible to introduce critters that you don't want with live rock, so one needs to know how to deal with these if that's the case.
I do not advise people to run mechanical filtration routinely, but it's an essential part of being able to correct a problem if it occurs. For example, if you've photosynthetic clams in your tank and they spawn, it's handy to be able to add a filter sock to remove most of the bio material from the tank water to prevent fouling.
If it is run routinely, then finely-divided food added for the coral's benefit gets rapidly stripped from the water column before the coral can capture it. The sock will also strip the water of copepod nauplii, rendering a pod population in a refuge somewhat useless for the intended purpose.
Finally, if mechanical filtration isn't frequently cleaned (as in once every couple of days or so), it doesn't serve the purpose of removing organic material from the tank before it breaks down. Personally speaking, I find washing out a filter sock every 2 days to be a major PITA, so I will only use one if I really need to.
However, as you noted, it's also possible to introduce critters that you don't want with live rock, so one needs to know how to deal with these if that's the case.
I do not advise people to run mechanical filtration routinely, but it's an essential part of being able to correct a problem if it occurs. For example, if you've photosynthetic clams in your tank and they spawn, it's handy to be able to add a filter sock to remove most of the bio material from the tank water to prevent fouling.
If it is run routinely, then finely-divided food added for the coral's benefit gets rapidly stripped from the water column before the coral can capture it. The sock will also strip the water of copepod nauplii, rendering a pod population in a refuge somewhat useless for the intended purpose.
Finally, if mechanical filtration isn't frequently cleaned (as in once every couple of days or so), it doesn't serve the purpose of removing organic material from the tank before it breaks down. Personally speaking, I find washing out a filter sock every 2 days to be a major PITA, so I will only use one if I really need to.
Patrick Cox
Active member
Ok, here is an update. As I think I mentioned, I had shutoff of my GFO reactor, now 3 weeks ago, and I shut off my GAC reactor going on one week ago. I have also been feeding my corals daily, but not a crazy amount. Just slightly under the recommended doses. I have also slightly increased the time my lights are on. Here are my measurements as of this morning...
PH - 8.19
Salinity - 1.026
Alk - 8.45
Ca - 440
Mg - 1320
PO4 - 0.08
NO3 - 0.0
So as you can see, my PO4 is up now but my Nitrates are still 0.0. So what should I do from here?
Should I turn either of my reactors back on?
Should I remove my filter sock?
Thanks!
PH - 8.19
Salinity - 1.026
Alk - 8.45
Ca - 440
Mg - 1320
PO4 - 0.08
NO3 - 0.0
So as you can see, my PO4 is up now but my Nitrates are still 0.0. So what should I do from here?
Should I turn either of my reactors back on?
Should I remove my filter sock?
Thanks!
Patrick Cox
Active member
Thoughts on next steps? I will keep feeding and I am starting 2 more fish in QT next week but at what point should I start up my reactors with low levels of media? Also, should I remove my filter sock for awhile and if so, when should I put it back?
Thanks!
dkeller_nc
New member
Honestly, it's a bit tough to run a reef tank on water test numbers alone when it comes to nutrients. Many folks will advise keeping PO4 < 0.05 ppm and aggressively running GFO when it gets above that.
But there are some of use that don't use GFO, and rely on stripping of PO4 by skimming and abiotic precipitation via the use of kalkwasser.
What you will want to do is develop a feel for algae growth in your tank as well as color and health of your corals. If there's nearly zero growth of algae in your tank, you don't have a lot of herbivores (fish herbivores - snails don't count), coral colors are faded, and the alkalinity and calcium numbers come out about right, then you've probably pushed nutrients down to the point where the coral won't do well.
On the other hand, if you're always in epic battles with GHA, red algae, cyano, etc..., things have probably gone the other way and would benefit from aggressive nutrient reduction.
Guess what I'm trying to say here is that there's a delicate balance to be reached, and most highly successful SPS reefers instinctively know which side of that balance they're on by looking at the tank.
If you wish to experiment by removing your filter sock, I think most of us would tell you that doing so can't and won't cause a tank catastrophe. Similarly, it's unlikely that leaving your GFO and GAC off-line is going to cause a major issue in a short period - you will gradually see nutrients come up in the tank water tests, and an increase in algae growth over time. You will know when it's time to put them back on-line.
But there are some of use that don't use GFO, and rely on stripping of PO4 by skimming and abiotic precipitation via the use of kalkwasser.
What you will want to do is develop a feel for algae growth in your tank as well as color and health of your corals. If there's nearly zero growth of algae in your tank, you don't have a lot of herbivores (fish herbivores - snails don't count), coral colors are faded, and the alkalinity and calcium numbers come out about right, then you've probably pushed nutrients down to the point where the coral won't do well.
On the other hand, if you're always in epic battles with GHA, red algae, cyano, etc..., things have probably gone the other way and would benefit from aggressive nutrient reduction.
Guess what I'm trying to say here is that there's a delicate balance to be reached, and most highly successful SPS reefers instinctively know which side of that balance they're on by looking at the tank.
If you wish to experiment by removing your filter sock, I think most of us would tell you that doing so can't and won't cause a tank catastrophe. Similarly, it's unlikely that leaving your GFO and GAC off-line is going to cause a major issue in a short period - you will gradually see nutrients come up in the tank water tests, and an increase in algae growth over time. You will know when it's time to put them back on-line.
Patrick Cox
Active member
Thanks for your reply. I understand your point. One more question - on mechanical filtration, do you think the problem is "micron" level filtration (i.e. - dense filter sock material) or mechanical in general? So if I choose to remove the filter sock, would adding some filter floss have the same possible negative effect of the sock or would it allow the beneficial food to flow through but still filter out the larger particles?
Thanks!
dkeller_nc
New member
I would take it all out and see how things work out. Even a big-pore sponges like Fluval's various aquaclear sponges will filter things out of the water that are way smaller than the pore size would indicate.
Look at this as an experiment - you can take all mechanical filtration media out of the system for a while, and if you don't like the results, you can put it back in. Nothing really bad will happen quickly by making this adjustment, unlike doing something like dumping in a lot of alkalinity or calcium at one time.
Look at this as an experiment - you can take all mechanical filtration media out of the system for a while, and if you don't like the results, you can put it back in. Nothing really bad will happen quickly by making this adjustment, unlike doing something like dumping in a lot of alkalinity or calcium at one time.
The tank looks new and sterile, like it has not even ready for SPS yet. Where is the coralline? Just give it time. It will come around. Get some live rock rubble with some pods, coralline, etc.
You can always feed your coral sodium nitrate and phosphoric acid, if it comes down to it - I have had to feed a frag system like this since it was WAY cheaper than using off-the-shelf coral food. However, I would just focus on getting the tank established.
You can always feed your coral sodium nitrate and phosphoric acid, if it comes down to it - I have had to feed a frag system like this since it was WAY cheaper than using off-the-shelf coral food. However, I would just focus on getting the tank established.
Just my opinion re adding live rock to system. I have a 75 live rock tank and have been battling bubble algae and aiptasia for over a year.
I recently started a 180 Marco dry rock tank and added 20# of live rock to "seed" the tank. The live rock (from what I considered to be a reputable source) exploded with Dictyota, a brown macro-algae, and a weird rod-like green macro-algae that I’ve seen on Reef Central as the destroyer of tanks. I removed the rock and am hoping that I did so in time. So IMO, live rock is not necessarily the answer.
I recently started a 180 Marco dry rock tank and added 20# of live rock to "seed" the tank. The live rock (from what I considered to be a reputable source) exploded with Dictyota, a brown macro-algae, and a weird rod-like green macro-algae that I’ve seen on Reef Central as the destroyer of tanks. I removed the rock and am hoping that I did so in time. So IMO, live rock is not necessarily the answer.
Patrick Cox
Active member
I would say this tank is relatively new, rock curing since last Oct and tank wet since Jan, and this may very well be the issue, especially since I started with dry rock. However I don't think coralline algae is a requirement for a mature tank. I run my Alk on the low side (8-8.5) so I think this is one of the reasons I don't have much coralline. So to your point, how does one "establish" a tank that was started with dry rock only such that it can sustain SPS?
Thanks for your comments.
Hi, I agree with your experience. This is the same reason I started this system with dry rock only. I too had a very bad experience with live rock in the past. You never really know what is in/on it!
Thanks dkeller_nc, I took my filter sock out yesterday so we will see how it goes. Thanks for all of your help!
dkeller_nc
New member
One observation about this conclusion. Yes, one can avoid introducing macro-critters like Aiptasia or bristleworms to a tank by starting the tank from dry rock and quarantining everything you put into it.
But - you can't avoid introducing the micro flora that you will have to deal with as your tank gets established, whether you started from dry rock or L.R. Basically, nature abhors a vacuum, and if your tank is full of nutrients from either new LR or the cycle process for dry rock, then some type of algae will have to be controlled by removing nutrients, cutting off the light, etc... This is just an unavoidable consequence of a new bio-system that is not yet in balance.
