Need help with ich

[b0bab0ey]

I figured I would take out everything but the fish including the sand since it is old and should be replaced with new sand anyway, qt all that for 8 or 9 weeks and the big tank. Never done it before but I have a general idea after reading a ton. I figured I would need some type of filtration but I wasnt sure if just doing a water change everyday would work instead. Im sure id have to buy a big expensive filter if I went for filtration rather than daily water changes. Let me know, like I said im just thinking, never really done this before

I think it would be best to do a combination of both - filtration and WCs. Mind you, I don't think you'll need to do daily WCs. Maybe 2x weekly. But I would add at least two large HOB power filters to help out. Maybe have a look on the local craigslists where you live to save $$$. Also, pickup one of these to keep an eye on the ammonia:

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AmmoniaAlert.html

 

[sandwi54]

MrTuskfish, Wow what a statement, "Eliminating ich is done regularly by people on this forum; often after they've learned that ich never has to be a problem if a QT is always used." When you find a way to eliminate ich let everyone know and you should live comfortable the rest of your life. There is no way to eliminate ich we have to manage it, ie quarantine tank. Which is a great idea and will give you the best chance of not having ich but not a way to eliminate it as you stated. Can't speak for the person that wrote the info I passed on but here is a link to an article that backs it up and by the way it's one of many articles I read just did not want to boar you with details since you seem to read so much,
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

Problem is that bperau states "Problem is I have to big of a tank and to many fish to just up and put them in a QT." So I'm offering him a solution that has worked for me. Yes I had Ich and placed my fish in a QT tank, 8 weeks. Left my DT fish less for 8 weeks also. Not to mention the difficulty of placing back the aqua scape, and one month later Ich. I was holding back on food trying to control Cyano. Problem with the fish was solved and it's been over a year. Good water and lots of food. Also being careful not to overfeed.

Anyway I'm just stating what worked for me> bperau, best of luck and I hope your fish do well. Keep us posted. I think your doing right by feeding and trying to build there immune systems. I'm sure the stress of the move has aided in this outbreak. Keep your water quality good and if you have one thats not eating I'd do everything I could to catch him, QT him and get him eating then find whats wrong then treat him. Nothing wrong with putting your fish in a QT tank. I think thats what we sould all do when we get new fish!

alanbates, although i agree with you that keeping a stress-less environment is essential, that is not the solution to ich. ich (cryptocaryon irritans) has been studied thoroughly and absolute cures have been found more than a decade ago. it has been posted in many scientific studies. just do a google search and you should find a few easily. the ich stickies on this forum take from these studies and provide short and useful summaries of the ich life cycle and its cures. relating ich to herpes simplex is not a valid point as a cure for herpes has not been found to date, but that should just be a matter of time. the same goes for AIDS as well, hopefully.

we all have heard stories about people trying the proposed methods (hyposalinity, copper, tank transfer) to cure ich but did not succeed. In those circumstances, there's usually something during the treatment that didn't go right. Ich treatments require very rigorous protocols. The salinity needs to be held constant, the copper dosage needs to always be above the therapeutic level, there should not be cross contamination between QT and DT, etc. With the right protocols, ich is actually very easy to cure. Leaving the DT fallow for 10 weeks is guaranteed to let all of the current ich strands to go through full life cycles and die (i can't speak for mutations that could possibly happen in the future).

you challenged MrTuskFish to completely eliminate ich. Well, he has done that for many many years, and so have most of the experienced aquarists on this forum including myself.

You also mentioned the stress of removing fish from DT into QT would induce an ich outbreak. Yes it probably would, but since you're treating them, why does it matter? Also why do you think a person can "manage" a stress-free environment indefinitely? A simple power outage without a portable generator could lower the temperature and increase the stress level dramatically, and this is something you can't control. in fact, the recent hurricane in the northeast caused lots of tank crash, some of which were actually caused by "managed ich" killing stressed fish in the tanks without power. This happens often enough in the past that we do not recommend managing ich, but rather curing it. all it takes is one stress factor that you cannot control or predict to allow ich to go rampant in the tank.

in short, ich cures have been found and proven to work. i have cured at least 20-30 fish of ich in the past. it is very easily done in a QT when you buy a new fish (since your filter only needs to supply one fish's load), but very hard to do once you have a DT full of 15 fish. This is why we recommend QTing every new fish and treating it before it goes into the DT.

 

[alanbates12]

The ICH related to the herpes may not be a good example to those who are not familiar with medicine. I did not right it but I understand herpes can flair from stress. So the author was relating the two facts. As for eradicating Ich you can never be 100% positive. You and your friend have maintained a stable environment. Ich is most likely in 99.9% of hobbyist. Thats not my findings but you can read about it in the links I posted before. Look Ich is out there. We are all going to have to deal with it. There are treatments to manage it. There is nothing to eradicate it or it would not be a problem.

alanbates, although i agree with you that keeping a stress-less environment is essential, that is not the solution to ich. ich (cryptocaryon irritans) has been studied thoroughly and absolute cures have been found more than a decade ago. it has been posted in many scientific studies. just do a google search and you should find a few easily. the ich stickies on this forum take from these studies and provide short and useful summaries of the ich life cycle and its cures. relating ich to herpes simplex is not a valid point as a cure for herpes has not been found to date, but that should just be a matter of time. the same goes for AIDS as well, hopefully.

we all have heard stories about people trying the proposed methods (hyposalinity, copper, tank transfer) to cure ich but did not succeed. In those circumstances, there's usually something during the treatment that didn't go right. Ich treatments require very rigorous protocols. The salinity needs to be held constant, the copper dosage needs to always be above the therapeutic level, there should not be cross contamination between QT and DT, etc. With the right protocols, ich is actually very easy to cure. Leaving the DT fallow for 10 weeks is guaranteed to let all of the current ich strands to go through full life cycles and die (i can't speak for mutations that could possibly happen in the future).

you challenged MrTuskFish to completely eliminate ich. Well, he has done that for many many years, and so have most of the experienced aquarists on this forum including myself.

You also mentioned the stress of removing fish from DT into QT would induce an ich outbreak. Yes it probably would, but since you're treating them, why does it matter? Also why do you think a person can "manage" a stress-free environment indefinitely? A simple power outage without a portable generator could lower the temperature and increase the stress level dramatically, and this is something you can't control. in fact, the recent hurricane in the northeast caused lots of tank crash, some of which were actually caused by "managed ich" killing stressed fish in the tanks without power. This happens often enough in the past that we do not recommend managing ich, but rather curing it. all it takes is one stress factor that you cannot control or predict to allow ich to go rampant in the tank.

in short, ich cures have been found and proven to work. i have cured at least 20-30 fish of ich in the past. it is very easily done in a QT when you buy a new fish (since your filter only needs to supply one fish's load), but very hard to do once you have a DT full of 15 fish. This is why we recommend QTing every new fish and treating it before it goes into the DT.

 

[alanbates12]

There are lots of post here about hypo. Please read and be familiar before you make any big steps. From what I read before you have to keep your salinity at a very constant level to be successful. Have not done it but remember what I've read. I think it can be done. I would also look into the removal of your sand. Sounds like trouble to me. It's got lots of beneficial bacteria and you may cause some problems. According to everything I've read Ich needs a host. Sand is not a host. Just do a bit more research and don't get caught up in the ****ing match about how to treat Ich. I think you have a good idea.

I figured I would take out everything but the fish including the sand since it is old and should be replaced with new sand anyway, qt all that for 8 or 9 weeks and the big tank. Never done it before but I have a general idea after reading a ton. I figured I would need some type of filtration but I wasnt sure if just doing a water change everyday would work instead. Im sure id have to buy a big expensive filter if I went for filtration rather than daily water changes. Let me know, like I said im just thinking, never really done this before

 

[MrTuskfish]

The ICH related to the herpes may not be a good example to those who are not familiar with medicine. I did not right it but I understand herpes can flair from stress. So the author was relating the two facts. As for eradicating Ich you can never be 100% positive. You and your friend have maintained a stable environment. Ich is most likely in 99.9% of hobbyist. Thats not my findings but you can read about it in the links I posted before. Look Ich is out there. We are all going to have to deal with it. There are treatments to manage it. There is nothing to eradicate it or it would not be a problem.

Sure, it can be eradicated. Fish in a QT with hypo, copper, or tank-transfer and DT fishless for 10+ weeks will almost always eradicate ich. Nothing is 100% certain, but this works most of the time. This is very common practice and has worked for many people on this forum.

 

[sandwi54]

The ICH related to the herpes may not be a good example to those who are not familiar with medicine. I did not right it but I understand herpes can flair from stress. So the author was relating the two facts. As for eradicating Ich you can never be 100% positive. You and your friend have maintained a stable environment. Ich is most likely in 99.9% of hobbyist. Thats not my findings but you can read about it in the links I posted before. Look Ich is out there. We are all going to have to deal with it. There are treatments to manage it. There is nothing to eradicate it or it would not be a problem.

not sure how you were reading the articles that you posted yourself, but it clearly states:

B) Ionic copper solutions, chelated and not. Copper is an old-timey, but proven method of eliminating Cryptocaryon.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Sure, it can be eradicated. Fish in a QT with hypo, copper, or tank-transfer and DT fishless for 10+ weeks will almost always eradicate ich. Nothing is 100% certain, but this works most of the time. This is very common practice and has worked for many people on this forum.

Nothing is 100%. There are always exceptions to every rule. Is there some strain of Ich out there that can survive hypo and/or copper sulfate after one full month... or not starve after 9 weeks without a fish host to feed on? Yeah, I guess there's a very small chance of that. But in 30+ years of saltwater I've yet to encounter it!

 

[sandwi54]

Nothing is 100%. There are always exceptions to every rule. Is there some strain of Ich out there that can survive hypo and/or copper sulfate after one full month... or not starve after 9 weeks without a fish host to feed on? Yeah, I guess there's a very small chance of that. But in 30+ years of saltwater I've yet to encounter it!

yeah it seems like people have been talking about a different strain of ich that can withstand even 1.009 of hypo. i haven't seen it myself yet either.

right, nothing is 100%, but we do as much as we can i guess.

 

[bperau]

Yeah ill try hypo when I return home. I have been keeping the tank at 74 degrees during the day and it goes to like 71 at night. I know your suppose to keep it at 78 but should i not try adjusting that till I get the ich straightened out

 

[MrTuskfish]

not sure how you were reading the articles that you posted yourself, but it clearly states:

B) Ionic copper solutions, chelated and not. Copper is an old-timey, but proven method of eliminating Cryptocaryon.

Just to avoid any predictable problem; Roget does list "eradicate" as a synonym for "eliminate".

 

[bperau]

Any reccomendations on what I should do with the temp?

 

[alanbates12]

Yes I agree.

Sure, it can be eradicated. Fish in a QT with hypo, copper, or tank-transfer and DT fishless for 10+ weeks will almost always eradicate ich. Nothing is 100% certain, but this works most of the time. This is very common practice and has worked for many people on this forum.

 

[alanbates12]

Never said those things would not work. I QT my fish and used copper for 8 weeks. Later had a problem with ich. Not saying this will always happen. I agree with the whole article, thats why I posted the link but I do have other ideas. The article was posted to back up some other information. for another RC member.

not sure how you were reading the articles that you posted yourself, but it clearly states:

B) Ionic copper solutions, chelated and not. Copper is an old-timey, but proven method of eliminating Cryptocaryon.

 

[alanbates12]

Yes and it also states:
Keep in mind, however, that no treatment procedure, regardless of how well thought out or comprehensive, can guarantee 100% effectiveness at eradicating this, or any disease
So I was giving you what you ask for. I'm not against copper, hypo. I did it myself but it did not work. 8 weeks my DT tank was without fish, they were in a QT and a month after putting them back in the DT had a signs of ich. So please I was giving you a few examples that go along with the person's quote like you ask. They are both great articals that support copper, hypo but also state feeding and good stable enviornment is key. It also states, Just stating it's not 100%

Just to avoid any predictable problem; Roget does list "eradicate" as a synonym for "eliminate".

 

[alanbates12]

This is part of the following article I posted here before,

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm,

Temperature effects. As with freshwater ich, it's advised to raise your systems temperature to speed up the life cycle of Crypt while you're treating for it. If your livestock can handle it, increase your heating to the mid 80's F along with whatever other treatment regimen you employ.

A) Hyposalinity, lowered specific gravity. Some advocates place lower spg. as low as 1.009. This can work if your fishes are not too challenged already or the pathogen too virulent, however it will not effect a permanent system cure. Know that most common measures of specific gravity are temperature specific and that most non-fish livestock will not tolerate the lower limit (14-16 ppt salinity) necessary to kill off the parasites. Therefore your fishes will have to be separated from your non-fish livestock if you're using hyposalinity as a treatment mode. And there are exceptions, variations to consider using hyposalinity. Cartilaginous fishes (sharks, rays) cannot be treated in this fashion... and such osmotic changes need to be made gradually (over days).

Any reccomendations on what I should do with the temp?

 

[MrTuskfish]

Yes and it also states:
Keep in mind, however, that no treatment procedure, regardless of how well thought out or comprehensive, can guarantee 100% effectiveness at eradicating this, or any disease
So I was giving you what you ask for. I'm not against copper, hypo. I did it myself but it did not work. 8 weeks my DT tank was without fish, they were in a QT and a month after putting them back in the DT had a signs of ich. So please I was giving you a few examples that go along with the person's quote like you ask. They are both great articals that support copper, hypo but also state feeding and good stable enviornment is key. It also states, Just stating it's not 100%

"Feeding and good stable enviornment is key"
This is the "key" to keeping any SW animal healthy. The KEY to eradicating ich is to kill it. By poisoning it(copper), "exploding it (hypo), and/or starving it (tank -transfer & fallow tank).

 

[alanbates12]

"Feeding and good stable environment is key"
This is the "key" to keeping any SW animal healthy. The KEY to eradicating ich is to kill it. By poisoning it(copper), "exploding it (hypo), and/or starving it (tank -transfer & fallow tank).

Yes good stable environment is key. The KEY to eradicating ich is to keep it out of the display tank DT. Nothing is 100% and anyone in this hobby is going to be better off with a QT. I believe thats the KEY is to first keep it out of our tank.

Reality is that people have it in their tank and thats the question asked in this thread. If you have the means to QT your fish do so and if they show signs of something ID it and treat it with copper, hypo, dips, starving. If you do not have the means to QT well a good quality diet is key and I think we all know how important water quality is.

I did take the time to QT my fish but the pesky little ich found it's way back into my DT. I went overboard and QT my fish for 8 weeks using copper and it still found it's way into my tank. I did water changes and kept my copper at therapeutic levels. This is my point that even doing everything you can do you still may find ich in your tank. Now since I've been feeding well my fish have been fine for almost 1 year so I hope I'm not faced with ich anymore. I think it was the stress of moving back into the DT and bad diet that gave ich a window. Now remember my tank was without fish for 8 weeks. My fish were treated with copper for 8 weeks but ich found a way to hang on.

So in a nutshell the best possible way to not have ich is to not introduce it into your tank and the best possible way is to QT fish and treat for ich if they show signs. But nothing is 100%. If I had it to do all over I would have QT all my fish.

 

[Reefaddict24]

Tagging along.

One question. If fish is already stressed with ich. And people say to remove the fish and QT in another tank. That is a bold statement to say since its harder to catch all the fishes out of the tank without removing majority of your rocks in which would stress out the fish even more.

I'm only saying this because i have a 400g tank that has the dimensions of 72x32x32. Recently i acquired an angel that was said didn't pick on any corals. Then found out he did eat corals so i had to remove that only fish. The process of fish removal is a big headache and took hours. The best way was to remove majority or the rocks and that lead to movement of sand and debris. By the time i was done and removed the fish, my tank was really cloudy i had to put back in the rocks. After this process i soon realized that some of my tangs acquired ich.

The only thing thats concerning me is that now people said to remove the fish and separate them. They got ich from the stress of removing another tank mate. Wouldn't me attempting to remove them cause them to stress out even more?

 

[Reefaddict24]

Has anyone ever just let time heal the fish with ich and they cured them self up?
Or is it a for sure thing that ich with and with out a doubt spread and kill off every fish?

 

[bperau]

And that's the problem I ran into. I have a large tank and its easier to take out all the rock and do hypo in the dt. On the other hand though i get alot of people telling me to just keep the fish unstressed and a healthy fish most of the time will cure itself but its always going to be in your tank. On the other hand alot of people say to to hypo or copper so idk