Need Help With Identifying This?????

[friendtothefish]

Hey guys,

Noticed this a few days ago. This female clown has been in my tank for almost 5 years. Please help me with what it is and what I could do about it.

D

 

[JHemdal]

It could be a wound, but its location directly over the lateral line might imply that it is a slight case of head and leteral Line Erosion - rare on clownfish, but I've seen it on maroons before. Is there ANY mirror image of this mark on the other side of the fish? That would pretty much clinch the HLLE diagnosis.

Jay

 

[friendtothefish]

Nope the other side is perfectly normal... I am also thinking about this more. I thought it was getting worse, but looking at it, it kinda looks like some new growth is occuring...

But I dont know...

 

[paulamrein]

I had the exact wound at the exact place on a non-functional male False Perc. that I dismissed as the mated pair picking on him. Now I'm not so sure as it is exactly the same. What I have noticed on mine was that it would eventually start new growth than start bulging out. I eventually pulled him because I had the mated pair, and I thought he was being bullied, so after that, I couldn't tell you what other symptoms came. Could be some astronomical coincidence and it is just a wound, but I'd be curious to find out what it is. I explored the possibilities of it being some kind of worm considering it looked like an entrance and exit wound, which may explain the growth protruding from the wound later.
I really don't have much help other than the fact I saw the exact same thing on mine.
Good luck, keep us posted.

 

[friendtothefish]

Paul, Did your live? Or what? Did it heal or get worse?

This is a big female about 3.5 inch long. So I dont think she is being bullied, shes the biggest fish in the tank...

FRiend

 

[kinlayan]

im inclined to think it is lateral line disease make sure you soak its foo d in vitamins, C especially and get some omega 3 supplements going to in its diet

 

[friendtothefish]

Can you be more specific with the treatment?

 

[paulamrein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13370959#post13370959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by friendtothefish
Paul, Did your live? Or what? Did it heal or get worse?

This is a big female about 3.5 inch long. So I dont think she is being bullied, shes the biggest fish in the tank...

FRiend

As I said, I pulled him before it got any worse or better. I thought it was just bullying.

 

[JHemdal]

paulamrein,

Don't forget that in the FW world, HLLE in discus was originally called "head worm" disease because the lesions looked like parasitic worms. The "worms" turn out to be mucus plugs. Still, the lack of a mirror image of the lesion on the other side of the fish tends to rule out HLLE (although not 100%, especially in new cases, it may start on one side first). The most anterior lesion looks a lot more like a bite than HLLE though.....

Jay

 

[paulamrein]

Isn't there a parasite that is Hole-in-head disease? I know most people group this with HLLE, but my study has shown hole-in-head being caused by parasite and HLLE... well, no one really can agree on that. Some as you know link it to carbon, some stray current, others nutrition and water quality, and even still some attribute to combinations. I didn't want to break out that can of worms though

 

[limitdown]

I think it might be hole-in-the-head (HITH) caused by some type of warm or external parasite. Else, it might be a bacterial infection from an external wound.
Metronidazole works for many types of external parasites (non-ich, non-velvet). For bacterial infections, I like to use minocycline or kanamycin.

 

[JHemdal]

Folks,

There is no known worm that causes lesions like this in aquarium fish. The parasite that has been associated with HLLE is a protozoan of the Hexamita group, it is an internal parasite - in the fish's gut. Early studies of these "hole-in-the-head" lesions in fish consistantly turn up nothing more than normal bacteria, no pathogens at all. Like I said, the "worms" are just mucus plugs.

The relationship with HLLE and Hexamita is more concrete in freshwater fish - treating discus or oscars with oral metronidazole will usually fix them right up (unless they are too severely scarred). I have never had any luck treating HLLE in marine fishes with metro. How can a gut parasite cause head lesions? Good question! It is presumed that the higher-then-normal numbers of Hexamita in the gut "steal" nutrients from the fish, their health degrades, and the head lesions develop.

IMO: for marine HLLE, the only PROVEN cure is to move the fish to a new (presumably better) aquarium. Look at the other thread going on right now where a person moved a hepatus tang to a new tank and it almost immediately started to get better. They are attributing it to a better diet, but that is awfully quick for a dietary change to happen - besides, that also presumes that the fish was being fed poorly before it was moved, and there is no indication of that. All of the "vitamin C" studies I have heard of that definatively worked ALSO included moving the fish to a new tank. HLLE is NOT contagous, there are no confirmed cases of a fish with HLLE transferring it to a new, unaffected tank. Aquarium systems that have never had HLLE tend to stay that way, unless something major is changed in the lifesupport system.
Grounding probes have long been ruled out as a cause of marine HLLE - but this old saw is taking a long time to die. There is one proven cause, and I've said this many times here - particulates, especially from certain types of carbon, free-floating in the water, have been proven to cause HLLE. What is the mechanism? I'm applying for funding to try to determine that next year.....

Jay

 

[friendtothefish]

Thanks for all the comments guys. I have some new info, hopefully this will help. The current holes look like they are filling in, or being covered up.

But there is a new thing right in front of them. Its a bump, looks like a bulge under the skin, kinda. This sounds like what Paul was saying but the bulge is in a new spot just behind the eye. On the same side.

Paul, I do not understand what you man by, "I pulled him before it got any worse or better" Do you mean you took him out and put him to rest??? Otherwise I dont really get what you mean?

Does this help with the diagnosis?

 

[paulamrein]

I meant I had three juvie clowns to start, once I got the mated pair and thought the third was being bullied, I pulled him out of my system and it went back to the lfs.
Jay has very good advice. As he does almost all the time. I'd take his advice. I only experienced the same issue, I didn't cure it.

 

[friendtothefish]

Whats the direct advice though? I dont have a better tank to move him to. All my other tanks have clowns and they will not get along.

What other options do I have?

 

[JHemdal]

friendtothefish,

Sorry - we all went off on a tangent. I did not have any specific advice, but the new bulging bump seems to rule out HLLE. Could the original lesions have started as bumps, and then broke open before you noticed them?

It is *possible* that the issue is Ichthyophonus hoferi, but that can't be confirmed without microscopic examination and there is no real treatment for it.

I still see no indication that this is an external bacterial infection, so no antibiotics would be warranted.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any clear course of action for you. "Above all, do no harm" comes to mind - jumping in to start a treatment when you have no definitive disease can cause its own problems.

Jay

 

[friendtothefish]

Thanks, I agree... Its too bad, as I really dont want to loose this one. She is getting huge and is a mated pair I have had for so long...... :-(

Friend