Need some advice on ich/velvet

[MrTuskfish]

Without a pic; I would assume this is ich too----just because the fish are still alive. FW dips do nothing for ich. Garlic and Selcon may help the immune system a bit, but they do nothing for ich. Because any benefit from Selcon or garlic is long term, use them or not, it really doesn't matter in a QT and won't affect the treatment. .
Don't worry about the visible white spots; the things you see "on his body" are not the actual parasite. Its buried well under the skin---that's why dips don't do anything. The spots coming and going is normal and has little to do with the actual parasite level.The only way you can kill ich is when it is free-swimming. I'd read the stickies on ich, a knowledge of the parasite is vital properly treating it and there is a ton of misinformation on the subject. For future reference, Flame angels are one fish that don't handle copper well.

When doing hypo, you must never let SG rise above 1.008, or the clock starts over. Evaporation can be a big enemy; an ATO helps. Unless you managed to cycle your QT, ammonia is going to be a problem. When doing WCs, be sure new water has the exact SG of the old. A perfectly calibrated hydrometer is a must.

 

[snorvich]

+1 with the above. He types faster than I do.

 

[MrTuskfish]

+1 with the above. He types faster than I do.

I was typing when you wrote your last post. My typing is improving, I'm up to 3 fingers and a thumb.

 

[gianluca1970]

Well, at this point I guess all I can do is wait and see. I'll soak their food in Selcon when it arrives. The salt is at 1.008 and I hooked up my UV Sterilizer to the QT just to help kill any free floating parasites that it happens to catch. This is the first time I've heard anyone say that freshwater dips do nothing for ich. Thats what sucks about reading posts and blogs. If you search long enough you are bound to find conflicting opinions and ideas. Other sites say that marine ich pops off as soon as it is dipped in freshwater. Other people say that it has no effect. The only thing I agree with is that it is stressful on the fish and probably is not a good idea just because the fish is already stressed out. You would think they would have figured out a better treatment or medication to kill the parasite without effecting the fish by now...

 

[dunc101]

Well, at this point I guess all I can do is wait and see. I'll soak their food in Selcon when it arrives. The salt is at 1.008 and I hooked up my UV Sterilizer to the QT just to help kill any free floating parasites that it happens to catch. This is the first time I've heard anyone say that freshwater dips do nothing for ich. Thats what sucks about reading posts and blogs. If you search long enough you are bound to find conflicting opinions and ideas. Other sites say that marine ich pops off as soon as it is dipped in freshwater. Other people say that it has no effect. The only thing I agree with is that it is stressful on the fish and probably is not a good idea just because the fish is already stressed out. You would think they would have figured out a better treatment or medication to kill the parasite without effecting the fish by now...

The cysts may pop in a FW dip, but as MrTuskfish stated, that is just the "left overs" of the ich and not the actual parasite that you see coming off the fish. When the cysts pop, it can lead to an open infection. The last thing you want to do is battle a bacterial infection at the same time as ich. This is what I was alluding to earlier =). Good luck!

 

[gianluca1970]

Thanks for all your suggestions and advice. We'll see what happens and I'll keep you informed.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Well, at this point I guess all I can do is wait and see. I'll soak their food in Selcon when it arrives. The salt is at 1.008 and I hooked up my UV Sterilizer to the QT just to help kill any free floating parasites that it happens to catch. This is the first time I've heard anyone say that freshwater dips do nothing for ich. Thats what sucks about reading posts and blogs. If you search long enough you are bound to find conflicting opinions and ideas. Other sites say that marine ich pops off as soon as it is dipped in freshwater. Other people say that it has no effect. The only thing I agree with is that it is stressful on the fish and probably is not a good idea just because the fish is already stressed out. You would think they would have figured out a better treatment or medication to kill the parasite without effecting the fish by now...

Sure, a better way to eliminate parasites is the Holy Grail of fish products. A reef-safe method would be Nobel Prize candidate. Obviously, this isn't easy; countless worthless products come and go. There isn't a dog flea treatment that is anywhere near 100% effective and we dog owners are a much, much bigger market than we fishkeepers are. Same goes for uhoh3 cat owners.

 

[gianluca1970]

Just to give you guys an update, I haven't lost anymore fish which is a good thing. My powder brown tangs body seems to finally be rid of any signs of ich. My humu humu trigger never really had any signs but continues to periodically go an a scratching spree trying to get something off. My pink tail trigger also goes scratching occassionally but at least most of his body seems to be cleared up. He does still have a few spots though. My black durgeon trigger, which was in the worst shape and was almost completely covered, seems to have cleared up quite a bit. He spends most of his time trying to hide by laying on his side in an almost completely bare tank. I do have one rock in there and a couple of pieces of pvc pipe. The good thing about him is that the last couple of days he shoots out of his hiding when I try to feed them, eats in a rush, and then goes to hide again. The fact that he is eating in encouraging. Also, his eyes were cloudy but seem to be clearing up too.

I did a partial water change last night to get some of the crap out of there. I've been maintaining a salt level of 1.008. I'm assuming that maybe the ich is going through a cycle which might explain why their bodies have cleared up. I've also set up a UV sterilizer to the QT to help kill any that get sucked into it. Since I'm not treating with copper I have been adding Ich Attack since I had a new bottle available. I'm not sure if this has been helping at all but it doesn't look like is has hurt anything either. I also started soaking their food in selcon which came in a couple of days ago.

Do you guys think it is worth it to continue adding the Ich Attack? I'm going to continue to use the hyposalinity treatment. As long as the fish continue to handle it well and are eating my plan is to keep them in QT for about 6-8 weeks. That should have been enough time for any ich in my main tank to die since there are no fish in there.

 

[dunc101]

Just to give you guys an update, I haven't lost anymore fish which is a good thing. My powder brown tangs body seems to finally be rid of any signs of ich. My humu humu trigger never really had any signs but continues to periodically go an a scratching spree trying to get something off. My pink tail trigger also goes scratching occassionally but at least most of his body seems to be cleared up. He does still have a few spots though. My black durgeon trigger, which was in the worst shape and was almost completely covered, seems to have cleared up quite a bit. He spends most of his time trying to hide by laying on his side in an almost completely bare tank. I do have one rock in there and a couple of pieces of pvc pipe. The good thing about him is that the last couple of days he shoots out of his hiding when I try to feed them, eats in a rush, and then goes to hide again. The fact that he is eating in encouraging. Also, his eyes were cloudy but seem to be clearing up too.

I did a partial water change last night to get some of the crap out of there. I've been maintaining a salt level of 1.008. I'm assuming that maybe the ich is going through a cycle which might explain why their bodies have cleared up. I've also set up a UV sterilizer to the QT to help kill any that get sucked into it. Since I'm not treating with copper I have been adding Ich Attack since I had a new bottle available. I'm not sure if this has been helping at all but it doesn't look like is has hurt anything either. I also started soaking their food in selcon which came in a couple of days ago.

Do you guys think it is worth it to continue adding the Ich Attack? I'm going to continue to use the hyposalinity treatment. As long as the fish continue to handle it well and are eating my plan is to keep them in QT for about 6-8 weeks. That should have been enough time for any ich in my main tank to die since there are no fish in there.

Good news on the update! Is Ich Attach the "reef safe" ich treatment? Anyways, I do know that Seachem does not recommend using cupramine with hyposalinity at all. If Ich attach is the reef safe version, then it doesn't contain any copper, therefore it may not do any harm. On the other hand, if it is the "reef safe" version, it isn't doing a thing in regards to killing the ich as it just an herbal treatment that supposedly protects the fish by boosting its immune system. You would probably be better off adding some selcon and / or garlic to help boost the immune system long term, imo.

 

[gianluca1970]

Yes, Ich Attach is the "reef safe" version which is the only reason I added some. I know that any copper in conjunction with hyposalinity is a deadly combination. You should do only one or the other, not both. Hopefully things continue to progress in a positive manner.

Here is a dumb question. In a hospital tank do you ever have any sand or rocks? My fish seem to be confused that they can see their reflections on the bottom of the sank.

 

[dunc101]

Yes, Ich Attach is the "reef safe" version which is the only reason I added some. I know that any copper in conjunction with hyposalinity is a deadly combination. You should do only one or the other, not both. Hopefully things continue to progress in a positive manner.

Here is a dumb question. In a hospital tank do you ever have any sand or rocks? My fish seem to be confused that they can see their reflections on the bottom of the sank.

Nope. I just put large pieces of PVC in mine. Here's a video of my QT room.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oz3nxtkeI0&feature=plcp

 

[MrTuskfish]

Yes, Ich Attach is the "reef safe" version which is the only reason I added some. I know that any copper in conjunction with hyposalinity is a deadly combination. You should do only one or the other, not both. Hopefully things continue to progress in a positive manner.

Here is a dumb question. In a hospital tank do you ever have any sand or rocks? My fish seem to be confused that they can see their reflections on the bottom of the sank.

Let the fish be confused for a while; it won't hurt him----he's a fish. Rock and substrate absorb meds, the PVC id ideal. BTW, "reef safe" parasite treatments don't exist. I'd remove it with copper, you have no idea how this stuff will react with hypo. You're pretty much ignoring all the advice you're getting; let us know what happens.:headwally:

 

[gianluca1970]

Actually, I have been following all of your suggestions. I've just asked some questions along the way.

The hospital tank I set up is completely bare except for some PVC pipe so they can hide. I am treating with hyposalinity and keeping the salt level at 1.008. I have not raised the temperature and have been feeding with food soaked in Selcon. I have not done any freshwater dips except for when I first caught the fish to put in the QT.

Since then all I have done is attach my UV Sterilzer to kill any free floating parasites that might get sucked up into it and have done a partial water change every couple of days just to keep the ammonia and other level in check.

As far as the Ich Attack, the supposed "reef safe" solution, I only asked because I had a bottle and didn't think that it would hurt to use it in the QT. The way I figured even if it didn't kill the parasite maybe it could at least alleviate some of the symptoms from my fish and help them to cope, which actually it looks like it may have helped.

I'm not treating with any copper. I plan on running my display tank for at least 8 weeks without any fish. Hopefully during that time my fish will fully recover in the QT to where it is safe to put them back into the main display tank.

The only fish that seems to be having a problem without any substrate is my black durgeon trigger. He is about 8 inches and keeps trying to lock himself between the PVC pipe. However, since I only added pieces of pipe he is big enough to basically push them around and they roll around the tank. Its actually kind of funny to watch.

dunc101, thanks for posting your video. I like what you did with putting a "T" in your tank. I think i have any extra fitting laying around somewhere so I'll put that in tonight and maybe give the trigger a better place to hide out.

Thanks for all of your suggestions. I may be asking a lot of questions but I have following your suggestions up to this point and things seem to be turning around. Hopefully they keep going in a positive direction.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Sorry, I guess I mis-read when the 2nd page popped up. Triggers always try to wedge themselves somewhere, I wouldn't worry about him. But, unless you know how "ich-attack" is going to behave under hypo conditions; I wouldn't use it.

 

[gianluca1970]

No worries. Your advice has been really helpful and my wife says that for the first time in about a week my trigger was actually swimming around the QT instead of trying to hide all the time. I'll take your advice about not using the Ich Attack while doing the hyposalinity treatment since the fish seem to be coming around. For a while there I was worried and was looking to try anything to try and not have a total loss. Thanks again and I'll keep you posted on how things turn out.

 

[MrTuskfish]

No worries. Your advice has been really helpful and my wife says that for the first time in about a week my trigger was actually swimming around the QT instead of trying to hide all the time. I'll take your advice about not using the Ich Attack while doing the hyposalinity treatment since the fish seem to be coming around. For a while there I was worried and was looking to try anything to try and not have a total loss. Thanks again and I'll keep you posted on how things turn out.

I hope it works and it should. For some reason; this thread has bounced all over the place. I sure don't have all the answers; but I do want to point out that this thread has a lot of discussion about questionable (at best) info on ich treatment and very little info on hypo---the method you've chosen to get rid of the parasites. Just my opinion & experience: Don't count on other meds (ich attack), vitamins, garlic. temp changes, etc., to help with the hypo. Vitamins,and possibly garlic, are good long-term immune boosters. But, they won't do anything short term. UV won't hurt anything, but any free-swimming ich will be killed by the hypo conditions long before it reaches the UV intake.
Hypo is very demanding and has no room for error. A perfectly calibrated refractometer is a must. SG must never exceed 1.009. Evaporation water must be made up ASAP. An ATO is a big help. Just a few minutes of an SG over 1.009 can doom your efforts. Focus on these things and not the little ones, and hypo should work for you.

 

[chris_an_amy]

Ok I've been reading everyones input and I see everybody is still pretty much fixated on the one true method of eradication QT, hypo salinity, 6 weeks of no fish in main display. That is all well an good but as u might discover in doing that method as many of us I'm sure have... is that the fish do not put up with that kind of stress too well. Whether they are infected or not u still end up losing fish and that is why there are people out there trying to come up with non harmful treatments that are safe for all marine life and it is also why every time we run into the situation were looking for that product or just something easier because it is just as stressful on us to do all that as it is on the fish. Everyone is too scared to try alot of these newer products it seems simply due to the cost invested in our livestock. Well I found a Reef Safe product for my case that I will get to after quickly identifying the problem which I notice alot of people skip!

I have done some research on my situation. I currently found out I have what I believe to be Amyloodinium an Ich parasite that is mobile and photosynthetic (Dinoflagellate) it attacks the gills first and thrives in temperatures from 78-86 degrees.Hypo salinity will not eradicate this parasite. This freaking parasite can take a beating from many different medications even copper, Trust me. Copper is so bad for your fish anyway and it destroys any tank u put it in so I'm staying away from it period.

So here are my symptoms:
-Scratching but no visual white spots or maybe a couple that seem to be decently sized...depending on the cycle stage of the parasite it varies per fish.
-a light white slime coating that is covering in my case my Hippo Tangs belly.
-orange rusty tint on some of the fishies tails which is Marine Velvet and in alot of cases is caused by this particular parasite.

From what I have read Acriflavine is most effective against this parasite. The website listed below is a very good one for helping to identify what your dealing with it covers alot.

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/disease.html

I want to say that I am currently trying a product called Aqua Pro-Cure which contains acriflavine, formalin, and aminoacridine. its specially formulated to deal with this parasite and the velvet disease it causes and it also claims to be effective against Brooklynella, bacteria, and flukes, and more + fresh water diseases as well that I care not to list because I deal with marine life only. This product is Coral, Invert, and plant safe. It is safe for all marine life even nitrifying bacteria.
Whether it actually works or not is a different story. I am currently on day 2 of the treatment. So far everything is doing just fine no signs of any distress, have not witnessed any scratching (which happens quite often usually). This is a 3 day treatment but for heavy or persistent infestations it may require longer treatment periods. The product is by FishVet and they also make another product called "No-Ich" which is a reef safe formula for the cryptocaryon irritans (white spot disease) and they can both be used in conjunction with one another. I have not ever had the white spot disease but if this product works for me I will definitely get the "No Ich" too.
I have read positive reviews on both products which is why I'm trying Aqua Pro-Cure. It discolors the tank for about 2 hours and then it seems to go back to normal. All u do is dose as recommended, remove carbon and or any other absorbent filter media. Not sure about turning the protein skimmer off it doesn't say that anywhere but someone else did it and said they were told to by the company so I figured I'd shut the protein skimmer off to be safe. You don't even really notice its in there except for when u initially dose the tank each day of your treatment. Don't worry everyone who is reading this and banking on my response, I will not leave you all hanging. I notice so many freakin people do that. They go into the treatment they are doing and give updates the whole way through and then finally your searching for their end result and they stopped posting like 10 years ago, lol. I will be updating my progress on day five unless something is on the death bed or not doing so well due to the treatment. I will post my end results and then two days after when the treatment biodegrades I will post again to let u all know the status of whether or not I still have any infection.

Current tank: 75 gal w/mirror backround, JBJ 300 wt heater, Hydor Koralia pump controller w/1050gph pump in front and a 750gph in the back, Aqua Ultraviolet UV Sterlizer w/550gph pump, T5 lighting 2 actinics 1 coral full spectrum 3 reg, Aquamaxx HOB protien skimmer
"best for HOB by far", 1 Aquaclear 110gph HOB filter, and using reefsaver rock.
Fish: 2 ocellaris clowns a black/white and orange/white, 2 tangs a hippo and a yellow, 2 damsels a 3 stripe and a lemonpeel, 1 royal gramma, 1 flame angel, 1 blue bearded triggerfish, 1 longnose hawkfish, 1 blue dot jawfish, and 1 harliquin tuskfish.
Inverts: lg ruby crab, lg pistol shrimp, 2 sandsifting starfish, a baby serpant starfish, maybe a purple tube worm anemone, a purple condylactis anemone, feather duster, almost all types of snails and hemits.
Corals: multi colored hammer coral that is on the brink of death due to last outbreak, red flowerpot coral, torch coral, striped mushrooms, neon orange/red mushrooms, several different types of zoas, sun coral, puple montipora, blue acropora, trumpet coral, electric green doughnut coral, pink tipped frogspawn, neon orange plate coral, Australian Red Rainbow Acans, pokerstar montipora, and a leather toadstool.
Plants: mermaid fan, shaving brush, and some hidden macro algae.

 

[MrTuskfish]

There have been plenty of bad reviews of this product too. Mostly the "anything that kills ich will also kill inverts" type; if I remember the last time I looked at this product. A product containing formalin (formaldehyde) in a reef tank?? Copper is quite safe, when used properly. So is formalin. But, I'd never consider putting either in a reef tank. BTW, copper does not destroy tanks; the myth that silicone sealant absorbs copper still seems to pop up once in a while. Good luck, I hope it works for you.

 

[MrTuskfish]

RE; above post from chris_an_amy---
You may have some sites mixed up. Nobody here is "pretty much fixated on the one true method of eradication QT, hypo salinity, 6 weeks of no fish in main display". I've never seen anyone here suggest hypo for Oodinium. If you want your post to get some attention, I'd start your own thread. Posting at the end of someone else's thread is very confusing.

 

[chris_an_amy]

well I did a little research and there is a chemical in this product I'm using that attaches itself to proteins so I turned my skimmer off and I'm taking the time period up to 7 days maybe further. But so far there is no issues with anything. My guess is that I may even want to prolong the treatment a little further than that even just because it kills it in the free floating stage which more than likely won't be 3 days like the bottle reads.
One thing that I noticed that is like an added bonus if the stuff works of course is that it kills annoying algae. I had a bunch growing on my circulation pumps and they are super clean now, kinda amazing how well it cleaned them. The rock work in my tank too seems to have less.