Need some design help + Question on Vortech Pump Strength at Distances

[Fizz71]

I know a bunch of you folks have used the vortechs and I was curious what kind of distance they can affect and how much additional flow I'm going to need.

I have an 8 foot tank that will be visible on 3 sides and the overflow that is on the last un-seen side has space on both sides for vortechs..the overflow doesn't take up the whole wall:

Top View :

********************************************>>>
*
*Vortech>>>
*
****
*XXX*
*XXX*
*over*
*flow *
*XXX*
*XXX*
****
*
*Vortech>>>
*
********************************************>>>

The tank is a 240g and 2 vortechs gives me 6000gph so far..that 25x already. I will also have the tank drain to a sump in the basement that..because of distance..will not be too fast.

Because the sump is slow I was also going to put a closed loop that pulls from inside the overflow and discharges near the far end of the tank...probably a dart that can handle 10' head. I need to figure out if the overflow will be fast enough to handle the sump AND the closed loop..if not I'll add drains in the sump chamber to pull it in.

I'm trying to decide if that is enough movement for such a LONG tank since the 2 vortechs and sump return will all be at the same end. I'm not going to over stock this tank with corals..in fact I'm looking at doing 2 islands of rock with corlas with only 1 MH above each island so I only have half the recommended lighting. I'll use VHO on the rest of the tank because I really want to step up the fish life in this tank rather than a crowded reef of corals. So...The design should be pretty open...will 2 vortechs at one end have enough affect on the second island 6 ft away?

*************************************************
*V>------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*-----------------------Corals---------------------Corals---------------*
*Y----------------------Corals--------X-----------Corals------X-------*
*Y----------------------Corals--------X-----------Corals------X-------*
*-----------------------Corals---------------------Corals---------------*
*V>------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*************************************************
<-------------------------------------8 feet!!!!! ----------------------->

..the two XXs are the return for the closed loop pulls in from the overflow at YY...not sure what their speed will be!


I hope this makes sense! Since it's viewable from 3 sides I need to put any additional flow out the bottom and back in the bottom!! I want to drill as few holes as I need in the bottom of the tank but make sure it's going to be enough because once it's up...it's up!..and I won't be able to add more holes without draining the tank!

TIA


--Fizz

 

[tridacna5]

At about 4' the current flares out. By 8' it will be spread out and gentle. If you put the return lines on the other side of the tank you can get away with two vortechs on one side.

 

[Big Boy69]

I'll tell ya what, if you had 2 at each end, that would be incredable.

 

[Fizz71]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10799819#post10799819 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Big Boy69
I'll tell ya what, if you had 2 at each end, that would be incredable.

No doubt...but the other end of the tank will be high traffic since the tank separates the living room from the rest of the house. With little ones running around I'd expect to find myself recovering a prop atleast once a day. Even though my "little one" is far from running yet..I need to think about this tank a few years out.

I think I've settled on a plan. I'm going to have one rock structure at the far end serve as a closed loop that will blow in all directions hence some of the water toward the overflow end of the tank to keep a good turnover and provide random current as it strikes the walls and vortech flow.

 

[Mal3]

Fizz, you may be able to get away with just one vortex and the closed loop pump at he other end, depending on how you set up the closed loop. You can always add a vortex easily. They put out a lot of flow, but they will fade at 8'. I have seen an 8' tank with one at each end and that works very well. If you are going to use a dart, be sure that it is close to the return. There is definately head pressure on a closed loop and if you do not set it up correctly, you will loose much of the output of the pump because it only has 10' head.

 

[Fizz71]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10811022#post10811022 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mal3
Fizz, you may be able to get away with just one vortex and the closed loop pump at he other end, depending on how you set up the closed loop. You can always add a vortex easily. They put out a lot of flow, but they will fade at 8'. I have seen an 8' tank with one at each end and that works very well. If you are going to use a dart, be sure that it is close to the return. There is definately head pressure on a closed loop and if you do not set it up correctly, you will loose much of the output of the pump because it only has 10' head.

Thanks Mal.

I really want to keep the tank quiet so all the pumps are going to be in the basement. On the up side I have a crawlspace under the floor where the tank is so I atleast don't go a full 10' to the floor but it will have to got about 6 plus some horizontal travel.

I was actually planning on using the Manta Ray. It has 1.5" on both in and out and has no issues with pressure (max head is 55'!!!).

I was going to start with one Vortech to see how well it works, but because it has to be mounted on the edge of the short side (the overvflow is in the center) I didn't think one would be enough. If you're curious..here's my layout:
http://www.fragswapper.com/misc/240gtank.pdf

I gave this to MO because I'm going to try some of his rock as my coral mounting area (I'm only lighting half the tank with MHO, the rest VHO).

Thanks.

--Fizz

 

[tridacna5]

The Manta Ray is loud. You could put a dart under the tank and never hear it. It would also save you about 5 amps. There is no head pressure loss on a closed loop so there is no need for a high pressure pump.

All of the returns will have to be valved so you can control the flow. It seems like the returns are directing the water to the sides of the tank. You should come up with something that will aim the current toward the rocks and corals so you're not wasting the flow. I would put two holes for the intake and two holes for the return on the closed loop.

Also, you don't want to merge your 2" drain lines on the overflow unless you are going to a 4" pipe. The overflow box is should be no less than 15" if you want to fit all of those bulkhead in there. It will also help to reduce the noise so the water folds over the edge.

 

[Fizz71]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10812658#post10812658 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tridacna5
The Manta Ray is loud. You could put a dart under the tank and never hear it. It would also save you about 5 amps. There is no head pressure loss on a closed loop so there is no need for a high pressure pump.

All of the returns will have to be valved so you can control the flow. It seems like the returns are directing the water to the sides of the tank. You should come up with something that will aim the current toward the rocks and corals so you're not wasting the flow. I would put two holes for the intake and two holes for the return on the closed loop.

Also, you don't want to merge your 2" drain lines on the overflow unless you are going to a 4" pipe. The overflow box is should be no less than 15" if you want to fit all of those bulkhead in there. It will also help to reduce the noise so the water folds over the edge.

Thanks Todd..

Here's the scoop...The overflow is already drilled so I'm just merging the 2 larger holes to one so I have redundancy if the top of one gets covered (and closed). Really I only need one drain and one return and the other holes are a waste but I bought the tank already drilled..and I didn't have a say in the drilling (used tank). I will have very slow flow returning from the sump because of distance (the sump will be a 100g tub on the floor in the basement..not the subfloor...I have an odd basement). So I think one will be enough..I'll figure that out when I actually measure the existing drain holes..at this point I don't know which size bulkheads I'll be using.

The closed loop is setup like it is because I'm trying to keep the number of holes to a minimum AND I'm trying to not have to plumb up and round in the hood..I have no access to 3 sides from the bottom..I only have straight up. Blowing against the wall from within the rock was the best I could come up with to avoid dead spots and I figured hitting the wall would randomize nicely.

All the PVC will be hidden in the rock so it will need to line up perfectly..it will probably be one rock...I'm working with Mo on that. Trying to put controls on each line will be a plumbing nightmare under the tank so I have to decide if I can take the chance of not having control or take the chance of the holes not lining up when the rock is made!

It's not final yet..I'm still kicking things around. I could also just do 3/4 in returns on the closed loop and reduce the plumbing...Not sure yet.

Thanks.

--Kevin

 

[Mal3]

Fizz, I agree with all Todd said.

That Manta Ray pump is loud and at 6.7 amps, it will add to your electric bill, big time. I have a slightly used one if you want one. I would go with the dart under the tank. They are almost silent.

If you change the engineering, it will save you big bucks in operating costs. You should reconsider his suggestions on the plumbing too. You can change it and still do what you want.

Those drawings you have are excellent.

 

[Fizz71]

I reworked it a bit and put it up at the same place as before:

http://www.fragswapper.com/misc/240gtank.pdf

I also started a thread in the large tank section to hear more input:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1214091

I appreciate the help from both of you...I really didn't want to drill 5 holes in my tank but I have to admit I like it much better this way. Although I decided to go with an Oceans Motions 4-way for more random current which means more money out of pocket...but I have a lot of stuff to sell to feed my habit.

--Fizz