Need some electrical advice please

[wet reefer]

Bean, this all sounds so familiar. The same things were being said about 30 years ago when GFCI's first came out. I'll bet the same things were being said when breakers started to replace fuses. I'm not THAT old so I'm just guessing.

We install so many AFCI's that if nuisance tripping was such a problem, my phone would be ringing off the hook. Old Vacuum cleaners can be an issue and I tell customers that. Mixers would not be on AFCI circuits so it shouldn't be an issue.

Your stats on the cause of fires are correct but I have to follow the NEC. In a few years, this discussion will be a mute point and in 40 years, currently new homes will be, well, 40 years old.

50% failure rate on GFCI breakers and receptacles? Where the heck did you get that info? As a company who installs thousands a year I can tell you you're way way waaay off. As far as AFCI's failure rate, I stand behind my previous statement. Call backs cost me money, Electricians are not cheap. I would not be advocating them if they were as much of a problem you seem to think they are.

I'm sorry but calling a AFCI a GFCI because it trips at 50ma IS splitting hairs. A standard breaker also trips to ground. Would you also call that a GFCI? 50ma can kill you in a heartbeat at 120 volts.

I hope we can agree to disagree.
I mean no disrespect to you and if this conversation was done in person it would have been done with a smile, maybe a little more intense too. NEC debates can get pretty...involved.
So what do you think about TR and WR receptacles?

To OP's last questions.

If your service is 100 amps it is NOT capable of 200 amps. The meter base, cable or wire between the meter base and panel, and the cable or wire feeding the meter base will have to be changed. I have yet to see a 100 amp service with 200 amp service entrance equipment and wire feeding a house. It just isn't done that way-anywhere. If the service entrance wire is underground that will also have to be changed. If it is overhead, the mast on the house will have to be changed. More than likely the overhead wires feeding the mast will stay the same. In Ohio, the homeowner is responsible for anything up to the utility tap. The OP will have to check with his utility or a contractor to verify what he is responsible for.

As far as the rest of your questions-what Bean said.
A sub-panel is good idea.

Do a search on the net. There are plenty of suppliers for older style breakers that are reliable. That's what most local suppliers do anyway.

 

[slathrum]

I have to agree, your service is probably not ready to just be changed out to 200 amps. The line coming from the pole to your house may be, but I doubt anything after that is. I know everyone wants a 200 amp service, but there's a lot of people that really don't need it. It doesn't sound like you do if you have gas appliances. Just get a good 100 amp panel. I like the Cutler Hammer CH panels myself because the breakers trip when they're supposed to and they make for a sharp-looking panel inside if the electrician does a good job.

Most places around me are still going by the 2002 NEC. I change out GFI's all the time, and arc-faults are known for being very finicky. I had no idea GFI's had been around for 30 years, but in my experience the new ones really aren't that reliable either. Put one outside where someone hooks their christmas lights up to it and it will go bad after a few trips. They're just not meant to last forever. I would never hook up a significant motor load to either one without expecting to have problems. Most everything else will be fine connected to a GFI, I just wouldn't hook up a return pump to one.

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14393694#post14393694 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wet reefer
Bean, this all sounds so familiar. The same things were being said about 30 years ago when GFCI's first came out. I'll bet the same things were being said when breakers started to replace fuses. I'm not THAT old so I'm just guessing.

That is a strawman and has no bearing on this discussion I have pointed out real world facts to support my opinion. FWIW, I have family members who are large commercial/industrial electricians and I also work daily with several very skilled electricians. A very close friend works with code adoption for the state (PA) and we have had many lengthy discussions about this subject (AFCIs).

We install so many AFCI's that if nuisance tripping was such a problem, my phone would be ringing off the hook.

I am not going to attempt to discredit your personal experience or guess at reasons as to why your customer base reports fewer issues than the experiences and reports I have looked at.

Old Vacuum cleaners can be an issue and I tell customers that. Mixers would not be on AFCI circuits so it shouldn't be an issue.

My vacuums are not "old". I have a "Phantom" sold by Bed Bath and Beyond (4 years old) and a Dyson that is less than a year old and both will trip a GE AFCI. I mentioned the mixer to illustrate the point regarding motor loads. Brushed motors will cause an AFCI to trip, as will a motor that slips phase under load. AFCIs also easily nuisance trip when exposed to a motor that has solenoid switched start/run windings.

On second though I will hazard a reason as to why you don't get a lot of AFCI nuisance calls. Most folks don't plug anything but DVD players and Alarm clocks in. An aquarium is a whole different ball game

Your stats on the cause of fires are correct but I have to follow the NEC. In a few years, this discussion will be a mute point and in 40 years, currently new homes will be, well, 40 years old.

I would not infer that you should not follow the code I would honestly hope that you do in fact adhere to it. My argument is against the AFCI in general and that fact that it has been added to the code.

In any case, it is not the AGE of the dwellings, it is the wiring practices and devices used 40 years ago that cause the fires The AFCI has not been needed for 30+ years. The GFCI on the other hand is certainly a life safer.

50% failure rate on GFCI breakers and receptacles? Where the heck did you get that info?

In 1999 The American Society of Home Inspectors found a trend (20% failure rate of inspected devices) and sounded the alarm bell. In the time since, there have been numerous reputable studies done in the US and Canada. One showing a confirmed 75% failure rate of hand inspected units in power surge prone areas of Florida. It is a hot potato because if the NFPA admits that problems exist, they are going to point the fingers at the very manufacturers that they pander to. The CPSC won't touch it with a ten foot pole because of the political ramifications. The NFPA is as political as any other government funded entity. Th Documentation is easy to find, so I will not bother posting it here.

As a company who installs thousands a year I can tell you you're way way waaay off.

Again, I am not going to attempt to discredit your personal observations or offer a reason as to why your customers don't notice the same failure rates that are documented nationwide. I will only offer that MOST people don't report what they do not percieve as a problem and that MOST people never bother to check their GFCIs EVER.

I'm sorry but calling a AFCI a GFCI because it trips at 50ma IS splitting hairs. A standard breaker also trips to ground. Would you also call that a GFCI? 50ma can kill you in a heartbeat at 120 volts.

No need for sarcasm. In any case, I very CLEARLY reworded my statement so as to make it clear that a GFP (part of an AFCI) is NOT the same as a GFCI. That said, 50mA is a very small amount of current in most instances. 50mA directly through the heart can be fatal, but in almost all cases the threshold for death or injury is MUCH higher.

It should be noted that you have taken this way out of the context it was presented in. I never inferred that an AFCI should take the place of a GFCI or that 50mA was in fact safe. I pointed out that an AFCI trips at 30-50mA and is therefore a GFP (I erred in my first post by using the word GFCI, which should be reserved ONLY for 5mA or less GFP devices). It should also be noted that some manufacturers are selling AFCI/GFCI devices.

So what do you think about TR and WR receptacles?

The TR stuff... It makes much more real world sense than the AFCI. As for those silly weather bubbles?

If your service is 100 amps it is NOT capable of 200 amps. The meter base, cable or wire between the meter base and panel, and the cable or wire feeding the meter base will have to be changed. I have yet to see a 100 amp service with 200 amp service entrance equipment and wire feeding a house.

I am going to respond, as it appears that you are responding to the OP and my reply.

I did not say or infer that a 100A service is capable or wired to handle 200A. I said that the feeder (should have clearly said "service drop" from the utility pole) is often capable of 200A service without being upgraded. I also said that if it DOES need to be upgraded, that is almost always at the cost of the utility. I mentioned the homeowner being responsible for the new meter socket and service entrance cable. I guess I should have stipulated from the weather head down, instead of the meter socket

In Ohio, the homeowner is responsible for anything up to the utility tap. The OP will have to check with his utility or a contractor to verify what he is responsible for.

And I thought PA was bad. The utility here will not do the service connect/disconnect for a service upgrade, it is up to the contractor. Hows that for insane.

No hard feelings at all... I like A good AFCI conversation and would also do so with a beer and a smile. I think you misunderstood my intentions. I think AFCIs are a complete waste of time in 99.99% of the cases. I do however understand that if they are adopted as local code, then they need to be installed as required.

 

[HighlandReefer]

In my house the AFCI breakers were required by county code for all the bedroom areas. The electrician had to replace many of the breakers with the AFCI to get final approval because the code had recently changed. I installed AFCI breakers to my reef system and put all the outlets on GFCI. It has been two years now without problems for my reef system.

My house is now 5 years old and I have not had any nuisance tripping in the bedroom areas. I guess I am lucky.

One of the biggest concerns I have, not to change the subject, is who is actually installing much of the electrical work for electrical contractors? Are they required to be certified? I new the electrician who worked on my house and he was certified. However, I go into homes all the time and see so called electricians arrive in company labeled trucks and I am not very impressed with them.

I was told by my electrician, that many of the nuisance tripping by AFCI breakers is do to faulty wire installation.

It's funny when you go in a house that has been checked by a Home Inspector for the sale of a house and see stickers at most of the electrical outlets because they were not wired correctly when the house was built. Would you want to buy a house like that?

 

[wet reefer]

We could go on and on but that should be another thread.
I stand by all of my comments though and my previous post was typed before your edit. No sarcasm was intended. OK, a little but all in fun. Just to be clear. A "service entrance" wire or cable is before any over current protection. A feeder is after a over current protection device. ASHI? They have their agenda also. Surge prone? As in lightning? I'll bet TV repairmen do well there also.
Highlandreefer-Just as in any trade or job for that matter, there will be guys learning what they are striving to be. But you are right in that many contractors load up a job with one qualified guy and several so called helpers or apprentices.

Some nuisance tripping can be attributed to faulty wiring installations but most of the time AFCI's will not set if there is anything downstream wired incorrectly, or it will trip the second something is plugged in. I don't put much stock in home inspectors. In Ohio anyway, they are not required to be certified and you would not believe how many times I have shot a home inspector down and had to give a NEC lesson.
We check every single outlet and so do the local inspectors. Maybe that's why we don't see the numbers Bean is quoting.

 

[wet reefer]

OP, I see you have an electric range and dryer. What about air conditioning? If you have AC you really should consider upgrading at some point and a load test should be done by a qualified Electrician.

 

[slathrum]

Actually, I believe the OP stated he has a gas range now. I would assume the water heater is gas too, but it may not be. Unless he has a pretty big house with more than one A/C condenser I seriously doubt he needs a service bigger than 100 amps. It's much easier and cheaper to switch out to a quality 100 amp panel. Remember, it's 100 amps per phase not 100 amps total.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Highland....

You will find that in any trade (plumbing, electrical, mechanics, hvac, construction, mining, you name it), there are a large number of "qualified" and "certified" journeymen that should have not made it out of the first month of apprentice school. You will find as many more that just don't give a damn and do half-assed work just because they can.

I work around different trades on a daily basis and am amazed at what I see. That said, there are also some very highly skilled and accompolished people in the same trades. You are lucky when you are serviced by one.

Wet reefer... I come from the mining industry where the NEC does not apply and terminology is a bit different. I used the term feeder incorrectly when attempting to describe the "service drop" from the utility to the weatherhead.

That is also why I loosely use the term GFI (or GFCI) but realize that the NEC has defined a GFCI in much narrower terms as a 5mA threshold for personal protection. An equipment power cable or underground feeder is protected by several Ground Fault monitoring technologies (Tone, Diode, Capacitance, etc)

Anway... thanks for the kind conversation. I am sure neither of us will change eithers mind on AFCIs. I am certainly open to giving them a chance every year or so though.

FWIW, I rarely ever see an inspector inspect anything more than 1 or 2 terminations and a test a single GFCI. Don't get me wrong, I have seen a few tag entire jobs... but it is rare. I have seen entire jobs that NEED to be tagged and have a nice green sticker instead.

 

[detroit_fan]

I switched to a gas range, also have gas water heater. I do have central A/C, but i live in michigan so its not on all that much.

I think i'm leaning towards running the 220v 40A circuit to a new box, then running 3 15a circuits off of that. One upstairs for my MH's and powerheads, one for my return pump and heaters, and one for the rest of my equipment. That would give every circuit a pretty small load and i could always add more that way. Sound ok?

 

[wet reefer]

Two circuits would be more than adequate.

 

[slathrum]

That would work just fine. You can do up to 4 20 amp breakers off that 2 pole 40. You're not going to need anything close to that though. It may be obvious, but you should set your subpanel right next to your main panel. That will save you from having to have a separate means of disconnecting - you will already have the 40 amp breaker right there. I have a basement sump too, and I wired in a industrial mechanical timer downstairs. Not that expensive, and much more reliable/safe than your cheap timers. I wouldn't use the extension cords you were talking about earlier. They'll just add voltage drop especially if they aren't at least 14 guage and that's not good for your ballasts. I don't know about electronics, but I've changed out a lot of magnetic metal halide setups on buildings with significant voltage drop.

It's absolutely true about good electricians/helpers. Not everyone is brilliant, and some people are truly stupid or lazy. Problem is, this is construction and there's a reason why most of these people didn't go to college instead. The good electricians are usually the ones that could have but chose not to.

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14399146#post14399146 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slathrum
That would work just fine. You can do up to 4 20 amp breakers off that 2 pole 40.

Just to clarify here... You can put more than 40A worth of breakers in a 40A panel. The concern is not the handle rating, but rather the calculated load.

For example:
My 40 space 200A panel has over 1200A worth of breakers in it and the 10 space 80A subpanel has 140A worth of breakers in it, with a few more to go come.

You're not going to need anything close to that though. It may be obvious, but you should set your subpanel right next to your main panel. That will save you from having to have a separate means of disconnecting

Maybe my code is a bit rusty or I missed something in the 2008 code, but to my knowledge there is not stipulation that a subpanel needs to be "next to" the main service panel. The only stipulation is that a subpanel that has more than (6) breakers AND is situated in a seperate building form the main panel, must have a main breaker. I.E you can put a main-lug-only subpanel of any size anywhere in your house and feed it from a double pole breaker. It does not need its own main breaker.

For example, I have (2) subpanels. The first is on he opposite side of the basement from the main panel. The MAIN panel is full AND a finished cieling makes it hard to get to now. It does not have a main breaker. The second panel will be in my shed to feed the outdoor lights, compressor, tablesaw, etc. It will have more than (6) breakers and WILL (by code) have a main breaker.

 

[slathrum]

What I was referring to was the need to have a means of disconnecting. If a subpanel is in a separate location, it needs to have a disconnect of some sort. If it's in the direct vicinity of the main panel then your disconnect is the breaker feeding it.

Edited to add - from what you were saying you may not need the disconnecting device if it's less than 6 breakers. If I were setting a subpanel in a completely separate location I would probably do it anyway, especially if it were for an aquarium. I won't claim to be an expert when it comes to NEC codes. I know most of what applies to a residential application but I haven't got my masters yet either. Then again, I've known several master electricians that couldn't figure out a 3way switch or contacter setup unless I drew it out on paper.

 

[detroit_fan]

Sub panel sounds like the way to go for me. Then i can run a circuit up to the fish room and plug the ballasts in there and won't need any extension cords and can still run a couple for the sump equipment.

This is probably a stupid question, but here goes- most of the smaller sub panels i have seen at the stores are 60-70 amp, i haven't seen a 40A sub panel. do i buy one of those and swap out the main breaker in the sub panel for a 40A, or do i not have to worry about it b/c the 40A in my main panel will trip if loads go to high?

 

[slathrum]

You were right on the last part. The 40 amp 2 pole breaker is your overcurrent protection. You could put a 200 amp panel in there and it would still be limited by the breaker feeding it. Just make sure the wire going to the subpanel is at least #8 guage and I believe you can go with a #10 ground. Make sure the neutral bar is not grounded as well on the subpanel.

 

[detroit_fan]

Ok, so i don;t need to swap out the main in the sub panel and i will use 8 gauge going from the 40A to the sub. not sure what you mean about the neutral bar being grounded, can you explain a little?

 

[slathrum]

Well, the wire that originally went to your range should be at least #8 if it was on the 40A breaker. If not, just get yourself some 8/3 romex and you should be set. As for separating the neutral from the ground bar, this is one of those things someone that knows what they are doing should check out. Most subpanels will already be separated, but you just want to make sure that you are able to keep your neutrals separated from your grounds. On a main panel, it will be the opposite and your neutrals and grounds will be bonded together on the same bar, or the nuetral bar will be connected to the ground bar.

 

[wet reefer]

A disconnect or main breaker in the subpanel is not needed regardless of where it is installed or number of breakers in it as Bean stated.

 

[wet reefer]

It's absolutely true about good electricians/helpers. Not everyone is brilliant, and some people are truly stupid or lazy. Problem is, this is construction and there's a reason why most of these people didn't go to college instead. The good electricians are usually the ones that could have but chose not to.

This statement isn't very "brilliant" either.

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14400736#post14400736 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slathrum
What I was referring to was the need to have a means of disconnecting. If a subpanel is in a separate location, it needs to have a disconnect of some sort. If it's in the direct vicinity of the main panel then your disconnect is the breaker feeding it.

Just for the sake of those following along:

That is not quite correct. A subpanel only needs a "main breaker" if BOTH of the follow conditions are true

1) The subpanel panel is in a seperate building from the main service panel.
-AND-
2) The subpanel has more than 6 breakers.

Or, in other words, any subpanel in your home does not need its own main breaker. The breaker feeding the panel is a suitable disconnect device.