New Tank

[huskerreef]

Looking good, it seems that in this hobby time can cure a lot of things... such as algae blooms along woth some serious maintenance and cleran up crew. A mature sps tank is hard to beat, there are some great colors out there. I would recommend the ozone, after a minor tweak we have mine back up and the water clarity is worth the ozone alone and with sps ultra clean water is key. I did eliminate the dryer at this point because it is exhausting its usefulness in 36 hours and requiring to be reactivated. Keep up posted on the progress and can't wait to see the pics of the new Anthias this week, hopefully they are coming from a reliable source

 

[tom obrecht]

Thanks Jim. That's the info I was waiting for. Will get the ozone ordered this week along with the CA reactor. I've heard that a number of times about the air dryers. Only ones I've heard of that really work are the Ozonetech electronic ones. I think alot of people just run the units without the dryers.

The anthias are coming from LiveAquaria and I have yet to have a problem with an order from them. They are the only place I order fish from online. I'll try to get some pics if I can.

 

[TD13]

do u know if the regal angle and butterflys are reef safe and do u think i can put three pyramid butterflys in a 90

 

[kau_cinta_ku]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10701863#post10701863 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TD13
do u know if the regal angle and butterflys are reef safe and do u think i can put three pyramid butterflys in a 90

they are all reef safe with caution however 3 butterflies and 1 lg angel in a 90 is way to much.

 

[tom obrecht]

The regals and pyramids are reef safe. However the regals are difficult fish to get a feeding response and probably shouldn't be introduced to a newer system. IMO the regal could be housed in a 90 (in fact if seen them kept successfully in smaller tanks) but I think you really need a very mature tankfor it to work. The one I tried didn't really settle in before disease set in and it was over. 3 pyramids in a 90...aaaaaa perhaps 2 if you had smaller fish and no larger ones such as tangs ect.

 

[TD13]

ok thnks

 

[tom obrecht]

Here's the latest. I have decided to just work with powerhead pumps (Vortecs and Tunzes) instead of the closed loop. Seemed the loop wasn't producing all that much current for what ever reason. My guess is that the 1 1/2" pipe going down to 3/4" pipe plus the 90 degree turns reduced the flow greatly. Just for kicks I thought I would repost the pic of what the plumbing orginally looked like in it's glory and what it looks like as of today.

The beginning with the original CL with 3 pumps:

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To a REDO with one large pump:

[/IMG]

To today with the CL removed and just using powerheads:

[/IMG]

I'm learning alot from setting this tank up. First and foremost is that large tanks are a whole different animal than smaller ones. I give alot of credit to people like Jim who have larger systems in place. It is alot of work initially, but alos alot of tweeking as time goes by.

I'm also including a picture of a new toy. Geo 624 calcium reactor:

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[tom obrecht]

Now for some "not so good " news. The tank has once again taken a turn for the worse. At least for the fish population. I had gotten a trio of Pictilis anthias that got held back an extra day on delivery due to the Fed Ex driver not being able to find our house. They never did acclimate and after a week or so bit the dust. Now everything else is dying as well. A handful of anthias and all 3 pyramids have died. The rest of the fish are looking rough as well and I'm guess it will more than likely be another total tank wipe out.

I am debating adding ozone to the system to not only clarify the water but to also erradicate some of the bad "joo joo" going on. If the water clears up, I might drop down to 3 halides for I feel 4 is a bit too much for many of the corals I have placed 3/4 of the way up in the tank bleach and die.

I have been adding sps corals to try and fill in some of the space that is available. I hope in time things will come around and start filling in some of the emptiness.

All for now.

 

[huskerreef]

have you gave any consideration on an exorcist I think your tank is possessed.

 

[tom obrecht]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10803395#post10803395 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by huskerreef
have you gave any consideration on an exorcist I think your tank is possessed.

Now there's a direction I haven't tired yet!

 

[garvin90]

i feel i should add my 2 cents since everyone knows how many fish ive killed in such a short timeframe.

I think your adding too many fish way to fast, even to a tank that is so huge. Maybe im reading it wrong but it seems as if everytime you post, youve added not just one here and there but 3-4 every week. My opinion would be to STOP ADDING FISH. I am officially cutting you off of fish and the only thing you can for the next 6mos is corals or inverts.

As for bleaching corals, its not your lighting thats the issue. Its the corals that have the issue. Its the old saying, its not you, its me. Leave your 4 halides, and place your corals on the bottom of the tank and leave them alone. If they dont have base plugs to sit on the sand, then i suggest a small eggcrate rack to sit a few inches off the sandbed with pvc legs. If you at my pics of the rack system my frags sit on, those are only a mere 3-4in from the surface with a 400watter sitting around 12-14in above that. The corals are in light shock and need to be adjusted to proper lighting. Especially if any of these corals just came in, they will almost always perish if not placed on the bottom to acclimate because most wholesalers do not light their holding tanks with 400-1000 watt halides. Thats just bad business and it wont make as much money in the long run. Some of those corals might sit under 150-250 watt bulbs for a month before they ship to your vendor and then you pick it up, throw it under a few 400s and wonder why it bleach. SPF 400 anyone? I have plenty of nonsps nonfrags that are now inches from the waters surface just loving the light.

Thats enough meddling for now. slightly off topic but, what did you end up using those CL pumps for?

 

[huskerreef]

I respectfully disagree slightly with Ray. I think that people tend throw tons of light at corals based on "rule of thumb" but if you look at where most of these corals originate we are giving them way more light than they get in nature. During Calfos lecture last year he touched on lighting and photo inhibition. When I first set up my tank I had 4-400 MH, then went to 3 and now I have 3- 250 MH and my corals have all done better, better colors and growth. I had a large cup coral that was pale pink, when I moved itdownstairs under less intense lighting it turned a deeper more rich color of pink. I am not sure if its entirely a lighting issue with your bleaching, I had a very tough time getting any acros to grow in my system until it matured a bit even under the 4- 400MH. I also don't think that adding 3-4 fish every few weeks is going to cause the mass die offs, you have nearly 500 gallons of water and it should handle a lot. But I do agrees with Ray on not adding in more fish for a while, maybe after you get your ozone up and running. That may kill off any parasites that could be in the system. You have also been adding fish that by reputation are bit more difficult to keep. Hang in there. And Ray, your point does hold some validity.

 

[tom obrecht]

First off, thanks to both Ray and Jim. I appreciate any feedback that anyone wants to shoot my way.

Let me say this...I have made some poor decisions this time around and I would have to agree with both of you.

First off the fish. I think I have been abit impatient at times...well actaully all the time! Part of the issue was trying to compare what I did with my old tank and trying to make it work with this one. BAD MOVE. These 2 tanks are different and one issue I think is maturity. I had no issues at all last time around with adding 5-6 fish at a time. Heck, there were times I added a dozen fish in a weeks time frame. I had little to no health issues and very little fish loss. I think the main thing was the tank was fully mature and the majority of items I started the tank with was from a tank that had been set up for years. This time around everything was new (water, sand, rock, lighting, set up ect). Think I was so anxious to get life in there I was making stupid mistakes. I do think ozone might help the problem as well, but I think the best route here will be to add ozone and not add any fish for awhile to make sure any "nasties" are gone.

As far as the lighting issue goes I think you both have excellent points. As everyone knows this is a highly debated topic. I agree with Ray that many corals come from less than adequate lighting situations. The thing is I have been trying to acclimate the corals by leaving them at the bottom of the tank and gradually moving them up. The problem is however they do fine until I get them about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way up then almost all bleach out. Perhaps I'm still moving them up too fast but this is where I think I agree with Jim. After having my lighting measured with a par meter from a local reefer I have alot of light...let me rephrase that...ALOT OF LIGHT going into the tank. I think I have a few issues that are adding to this. First of all 400 watt halides are intense, then I have them mounted about 12" from the water surface (due to the fact of a low ceiling heigth in that area) and then I have them mounted in Luminarc reflectors that IMO almost doubles the intesity. Now depending on who you talk to it might be too much. I'm personally thinking 3-400's would more than sufficent and like Jim said 250's might be even better. I would hate at this point redo the lighting again but it might make a big difference. I thik I will take off one of the 400's, see how things go and then perhaps debate on the 250's. I will say this...last time I saw Jim's tank it not only looked bright to the human eye, but his coral colors were intense and his growth appeared good as well. All under 250's in what I think was a 31" high tank.

I appreciate all your comments and keep them coming!!

 

[tom obrecht]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10809069#post10809069 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by garvin90
slightly off topic but, what did you end up using those CL pumps for?

I'm not using them for anything. Right now they are sitting on the shelf getting ready to sell. Interested?

 

[huskerreef]

I moved to the 250's purely to save a few bucks on my electric bill and did not see any ill affects as I stated. You will probably be in good shape with the 3-400's. When I first switched the lighting it did look a bit dim at first but after a day or so you get used to it and forget the difference. I think that in time as your tank matures these issues will start to go away and you again will be able to enjoy the hobby with less stress. Its hard to go from TOTM to brand new, but I am confident you will be in the running again soon.

 

[tom obrecht]

I'm actually thinking of going with 4-250's. That way I can use all the reflectors I currently have, keep more even lighting within the tank and still use a bit less electricity than using 3-400's. What do you think?

 

[garvin90]

Actually i might be interested, thanks for asking tom. Shoot me a pm with specs and pricing if you would.

As far as lighting goes, unfortunately jim we will have to agree to disagree. Im firm in my stance on lighting. If your(tom) corals are bleaching out after moving them up so high in the tank, my recommendation is to stop moving them higher and let them grow into the light. It may end up that you will trim them back if the tips towards the surface burn or they may adjust to the intensity. If you really feel its to much light then shut down to 3, but i seriously urge you to NOT go down with 250s.

As far as your tank is concerned jim, i dont think its really on the same par(no pun intended) as tom's. My understanding of tom's tank(correct me if im wrong) is a SPS only tank with no softies or the like. Yours(jim) i consider a mixed reef with leathers, LPS, and some lower light SPS. For your corals, the lighting is great. That cup coral you mentioned, all that lighting may have been overshock to it. The thing that alot of people do not look at for coral placement in the reef is; area of origin(including high tide exposure), tissue/skeletal structure and polyp size including expansion. Cup corals IME do not come from intensly lit areas but further(this also means a little more nutrients) down the reef column. Plenty of flow though to brush them clean and larger polyp size to capture planktonic foods to suplement some light. It was completely sensible for you to pull it from the main display and place it in your sump with less intensive lights and a few more nutrients since all your water collects down there.

As far as people tending to throw tons of light at things, i think that your right and wrong. Some people do just throw halides on a tank because they've read somewhere that's what is needed to grow corals, while others are in tom's situation and pulling from previous experiences are not yeilding the same results(due in part because of aforementioned stability of the system).

I do not claim to be a expert on lighting and can only offer my opinion from experiences of both myself and others i have talked with including someone i think you should talk to tom. Contact jeolson here on RC. Most of his tanks are lit with 1000watters and with enough flow to knock down a holstein(cow, for nonfarm people). Jesse stocks his tanks with 90% sps corals. The other 10% is zoos pretty much.

I feel thats enough preaching from me for right now.

 

[huskerreef]

I think that the key to jeolson success is stated in your comments "enough flow to knock down a holstien" During Jake Adams lecture earlier this year he made a pretty good case that flow and lighting go hand in hand, meaning increased flow will give you better results with increased lighting. I would venture to guess that jesse's tank would not do as well under that intense light if he didn't have so much flow. He seems to have the right mix. I am not disagreeing that you can successfully grow sps under high par lighting, thats been proven and practiced, I am stating that in my opinion you can be sucessful under somewhat lesser lighting as well. Let me share a few quotes from a post I put up from another forum on how to save a few $$ on my electric bill that relate directly to what we are discussing on your tank Tom.
"you'll have no problem at all with 250 watt MHs over a 30" tank. At worst, a few demanding coral species may need to be placed/kept in the top third of the tank. Rare though. Light in the reef hobby is very badly abused and overused... made worse by excessively blue lamps."
and
"Starting with your 1000 watt halide. I am not exaggerating in the least little bit when I say that I cannot imagine any circumstance where an aquarist would need a 1000watt lamp... for any reason... ever "
Both of these quotes are Calfo. Who we can all agree has some knowledge on the subject of reefkeeping.

Sorry to hijack your thread Tom to debate Ray on lighting, just trying to get some helpful dialog going.

 

[tom obrecht]

hummm...interesting feedback.

Well, here's some more trivia. Most (if not all) of the sps tanks I have seen here in the Milwaukee area seem to be using 250's. Most are sps tanks and they still appear to me to have good color and growth. I'm not disagreeing with you Ray just stating my observations. I guess I see it as if I can get similar results with 250's (remembering that I do have the Luminarc reflectors that are very aggressive) and get better, more even light spread than 3 400's why should I not go that route? It saves me electricty and heat? As far as letting the corals grow up to the light, I agree with that statement other than almost all of my rock to anchor corals to is halfway up the tank height. I really planned this tank with the aquascaping open so to allow lots of water mov't as well as plenty of space for the corals to grow.

You mentioned that if the corals grow up to the light and then burn/bleach when they hit too high of levels of light, why not go down to 250's and have the corals grow to the surface?

I'm not disagreeing, just asking my self what direction to take. I think the thing to remember here is that there is more than one way to light a tank. When my tank had par readings on it done my levels were quite a bit higher than other reefers sps tanks. That's the reason I'm considering dropping to the 250's. Heck I have even seen sps tanks run on 175's with nice color and growth. Anyway, enough for now.

Ray...I'm PM you on the info on the pumps.

 

[garvin90]

You may be correct about those luminarcs being more aggressive with the lighting. Electricity and heat are two major buzz-killers in our hobby and the better we deal with them the better.