Nitrate Reduction 101 with sugar!!!

[Clouded]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7877636#post7877636 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slimytadpole
I read his post, and was responding to your specific comment about the suitability of quick fixes in this hobbhy. You're admonishing people for using quick fixes, and I'm telling you you need to get off your high horse.

If he's using this as a long term solution, then that's not a quick fix. This isn't a difficult concept to understand.

"Also, we are admonished that "it's best to find the source of your excess nitrates rather than use quick fix solutions" and we all know this is true. BUT............. I know the source of my nitrates. I overstock, overfeed, underskim, hardly waterchange. "

This is what he said...now he overstocks, overfeeds, underskims and does not do water changes...now instead of doing more water changes and up the skimming and cut down on the feeding he wants to use a quick fix, thus sugar being added...this is not the proper way to go about things...so please do not tell me to get off my high horse...please explain to me, why I am on a high horse?

 

[CyanoMagnet]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7868331#post7868331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PatrickJ
You really can not beat good husbandry, as responsible aquarist you must find your own balance in your system and work with it and not hope on outside sources as means of fixing bad husbandry.

Hrmm.. Why not consider adding sugar "good husbandry"?
Does "good husbandry" require that you put in a certain amount of physical labor?

 

[slimytadpole]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7877739#post7877739 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CyanoMagnet
Hrmm.. Why not consider adding sugar "good husbandry"?
Does "good husbandry" require that you put in a certain amount of physical labor?

Adding sugar to the tank is a way to quickly reduce excess nitrate (quick-fix) without actually addressing the problem. It's a band-aid.

Good husbandry involves finding solutions to the problem, as opposed to using quick-fixes for the long-term.

Ultmately, the lack-of-good-husbandry comment is a result of this (which I missed the first time through):

BUT............. I know the source of my nitrates. I overstock, overfeed, underskim, hardly waterchange.

So.

Untill I get a little self control, or get a 3,985,983,757 gallon tank to keep all the creatures I love, I may resort to a quick fix from time to time.

 

[CyanoMagnet]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7877706#post7877706 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Clouded
"Also, we are admonished that "it's best to find the source of your excess nitrates rather than use quick fix solutions" and we all know this is true. BUT............. I know the source of my nitrates. I overstock, overfeed, underskim, hardly waterchange. "

This is what he said...now he overstocks, overfeeds, underskims and does not do water changes...now instead of doing more water changes and up the skimming and cut down on the feeding he wants to use a quick fix, thus sugar being added...this is not the proper way to go about things...so please do not tell me to get off my high horse...please explain to me, why I am on a high horse?

Im not going to accuse you of being on a high horse, but I would like to remind you that more often than not, the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.

If sugar does the job in place of all the forementioned things, then what exactly is wrong with it? Is it that your angry because you have been working hard to keep your tank where as this gentleman does much less work and achieves the same results (as far as nitrates go).

I do not use sugar(and have relatively low nitrates) and am trying to be impartial here but if sugar does indeed work without harm (apparently everyone in germany uses it) than what exactly do you find wrong with it?

 

[wds21921]

It's funny that this post in particular seems to make it's way into RC every 6-8 months with the same discussion. I've seen it appear at least 5 times already over the last 2-3 years. It's not new.

I agree with most on here that if you do proper maintenance you shouldn't have to resort to this. I've seen the effects of overdosing and the amount of bloom you'll achieve is frightening.

Taking shortcuts to save yourself some work makes no sense to me.

 

[CyanoMagnet]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7877778#post7877778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slimytadpole
Adding sugar to the tank is a way to quickly reduce excess nitrate (quick-fix) without actually addressing the problem. It's a band-aid.

Good husbandry involves finding solutions to the problem, as opposed to using quick-fixes for the long-term.

Ultmately, the lack-of-good-husbandry comment is a result of this (which I missed the first time through):

Problem is clearly feedings. That is the cause of nitrates.

Explain this. Why is changing water every 2 weeks considered good husbandry but putting sugar is not?

If you call adding sugar a quick fix, one can argue that water changes are a quick fix also.

My point with it is that reefkeeping is in its baby stages. Still evolving and changing because it needs to.
If sugar works then I am all for it for one simple reason.

People keep tanks. Alot of people dont have the time to perform perfect husbandry. If adding sugar saves someone a few hours a week to do other things Im all for it. In the long run it will probably save many critters who would otherwise be suffering from high nitrates. Sure you can achieve the same results with other means but if you can save a little time and achieve the same results, then why not do it?

And if you dont want it to be too quick a fix, add sugar alot slower:lol:

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7877778#post7877778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slimytadpole
Adding sugar to the tank is a way to quickly reduce excess nitrate (quick-fix) without actually addressing the problem. It's a band-aid.

Good husbandry involves finding solutions to the problem, as opposed to using quick-fixes for the long-term.

Ultmately, the lack-of-good-husbandry comment is a result of this (which I missed the first time through):

HOw is it any more of a bandaid than feeding less? Theyre different solutions to the same problem.

Its just a different method of nutrient removal. Woudl you say getting a bigger skimmer is a bandaid? Because thats basically the same thing, increased nutrient export.

 

[Clouded]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7877990#post7877990 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
HOw is it any more of a bandaid than feeding less? Theyre different solutions to the same problem.

Its just a different method of nutrient removal. Woudl you say getting a bigger skimmer is a bandaid? Because thats basically the same thing, increased nutrient export.

Rich...I have been around this board for a awhile just reading posts...and for the most part you bring up good points and make sense...

However...there has not been any long time success documented with this...and until then I consider this a short term fix...I guess I look at like this... In order to be not overwieght we must eat proper food and excercise...but instead people take pills and use lipo so they do not have to work as hard to acheive what seems to be the same result, but yet there is one major problem with this, you are not any heathlier, just masking the problem...

So yes I think not feeding as much and skimming more is a better solution, then adding sugar...at this point in time, until long term success has been proven...Again like I have said, adding sugar is like a basic "zeo" or "prodibio" so I do not completely disagree with adding this, but I think until there is proven results of long term success, I think it should be avioded for most people. And this is what I said from my first post, that I do not disagree with this method, however it should be highly researched and should only be attempted by people with lots of expeirence with this hobby...so I just want to post to let anyone who is new to the hobby that the posters statement is not gold and for most this should be avioded. Cause most people on boards that are new to them and new to the hobby, tend to take what one person says as gold and it ends up in catastrophic events...this same person could also be new to the hobby and have a tank that is cycling and notice that levels are high and figure the fix is just to add sugar instead of knowing that is a cycle and learn from the cycle.

Like I said, I added sugar to my tank in the begining to help speed up the cycle, did it? I think it help yes....But I did not add anymore and let my tank sit for a while to make sure everything was ok...I did not continue due to not knowing the long term effects...

 

[PatrickJ]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7877778#post7877778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slimytadpole
Adding sugar to the tank is a way to quickly reduce excess nitrate (quick-fix) without actually addressing the problem. It's a band-aid.

Good husbandry involves finding solutions to the problem, as opposed to using quick-fixes for the long-term.

Ultmately, the lack-of-good-husbandry comment is a result of this (which I missed the first time through):

nuff said.


It seems like adding sugar is like those Lipozeen and Zanthrax (or whatever they are called).

People just dont want to work out to get a good body. They want a magic pill that does it for them. Doing it right is by eating in the correct portions and physical activity. In other words, working for success.

This is much like reefing now a days, we all want that magic solution in a bottle to cure our reefing woes. For example, OMG waterchanges, feeding too much, overstocking, you know the list goes on....we dont want to work for what we want.


It does not get any simpler than that. Find your balance in your system and work with it. Dont go against the grain by over stocking, overfeeding, and not doing waterchanges.

 

[ReeferAl]

Regarding the dosing of an organic carbon source, which I have now been doing for about a year, the key is to not expect it to fix all your problems. Just like kalk, skimming, filter socks, it is an artificial method of trying to make up for the fact that our aquariums do not have the vastness of the ocean to draw on. There is nothing more or less wrong with using the method as part of your tank maintenance. Using too much to provide a quick fix to a big nitrate problem can lead to disaster.

Allen

 

[ReeferAl]

Now, as far as pros and cons, these are the issues with carbon (vodka or sugar)

The growth of bacteria is stimulated by the sugar. This promotes a generalized growth of bacteria, not specific to anaerobes.

The bacteria decrease nitrate and phosphate by assimilating it into their biomass. It is only exported from the system when the bacteria are exported, either through skimming or mechanical filters.

It may provide "bacterioplankton" for feeding of SPS corals. It is this side of the dosing that may help to simulate a natural reef by increasing the availability on microplankton. This has NOT been proven to my knowlege though.

Now for the potential problems:

Dosing too fast can drop the phosphate or nitrate too low and cause a tank crash, such as by widespread coral bleaching.

When the dosing is stopped, or if there is exponential bacterial growth that depletes the nutrient availability, the bacteria may suddenly die off. That is what can drive the oxygen levels down.

The sugar stimulates the growth of ALL bacteria, so if there are pathogenic (disease-causing) bacteria in the tank it can lead to spread of disease in the fish or corals.

Personally I would never dose so much that my tank would become cloudy as a previous poster has suggested. I dose about 2 tsp per day in 500+ gal of tank water and it is dosed 24/7 by a dosing pump. It is really a small amount and I'm not sure how much it helps. I do know that when I'm dosing it my filter sock tends to get a bit "slimey" from the bacterial coating so it must be causing some bacterial growth. Just use it cautiously and don't expect it to be a "miracle cure".

Allen

 

[PatrickJ]

Good point Allen, you are the most sensible person to use a carbon source to reduce nitrates.

If RC had a prize for being most sensible, you would win it.

 

[fishykid9212]

Very well said, in fact the only time my water got cloudy was when it got very high and I added a little more than I should of. Now I only use a pinch or two daily, it helps keep the nitrates down and my water is never cloudy. It also is such a small ammount that it's not deadly like if you dosed too much.

 

[Nammy]

I use sugar in my coffee and it's good!!!

 

[Cubman777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7877591#post7877591 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Clouded
Why are you on your high horse?
but he wants to continue to use it and not figure the problem out, that is stupid.

Because your insulting a fellow reefer by calling what he does stupid. Even if it is (which we dont really know anyway, since you and so many others have stated that we dont really know the side effects), it is his tank and his decision. He paid for his tank and should be allowed to do to it as he pleases.

This is one of the funniest threads I have read in a while. There are obviously polarized views with regards to what many consider "responsible or ethical" reefkeeping.
I personally try to keep in mind that reef central is a great place for members of the reef tank community to share information. By calling someone or their ideas stupid, we are discouraging the sharing of information, information I am sure that we could all use.

 

[xtrstangx]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7877778#post7877778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slimytadpole
Adding sugar to the tank is a way to quickly reduce excess nitrate (quick-fix) without actually addressing the problem. It's a band-aid.

Good husbandry involves finding solutions to the problem, as opposed to using quick-fixes for the long-term.

Ultmately, the lack-of-good-husbandry comment is a result of this (which I missed the first time through):

Dang, so I guess my protein skimmer is a band-aid for my nutrients. And my fuge is a band-aid for my nutrients too. I guess I better not do water changes either. I should go ahead and take out my rock too since that is just another band-aid.

Maybe I should take out all my fish, coral, and inverts and stop feeding, that'll stop the whole nutrient problem and I won't be using band-aids anymore.

 

[zemuron114]

what happens when you stop dosing sugar?? I would be afraid the nitrates/phosphates would rise to quickly.
anyone know this???

 

[affan]

Wow. I am really liking this whole fish and coral free reefing idea!

 

[PatrickJ]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7881319#post7881319 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xtrstangx
Dang, so I guess my protein skimmer is a band-aid for my nutrients. And my fuge is a band-aid for my nutrients too. I guess I better not do water changes either. I should go ahead and take out my rock too since that is just another band-aid.

Maybe I should take out all my fish, coral, and inverts and stop feeding, that'll stop the whole nutrient problem and I won't be using band-aids anymore.

Lets try to be sensible. You know without those we would be in the same place as we were in the 80's.

People do successful reef tanks without sugar, they do not do so well (with some exceptions) without protein skimmers. That is the standard for today and likely a long time.

There are too many benefits to discard a protein skimmer, rock, and fuge.

Remeber, people do have great looking tanks without resulting to sugar.

 

[xtrstangx]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7881574#post7881574 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zemuron114
what happens when you stop dosing sugar?? I would be afraid the nitrates/phosphates would rise to quickly.
anyone know this???

You have to ease your tank off of it, I think.. otherwise all the bacteria doesn't have any more food and will die and create a minicycle.

PatrickJ, I know its kind of a stretch, but it may be a closer comparsion to compare it to ozone or UV. Both can help the reef tank, but its not necesary to run it. Some people need them to have a successful reef.

People need to stop being so critical of everyone who tries something new in reefkeeping. Between carbon dosing and bare bottom, theres a lot of ignorance (not calling you out Patrick) and a lot of cynics.