nelsonkearstin
New member
Is it cyano u have? I just started sugar dosing last week as well... started with 80ppm no3! Now down to about 50... so, I researched cyano... along with other things
Nitrate Reduction 101 with sugar!!!
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dkeller_nc
New member
By the way folks, from a scientific point of view the definition that's often copied in these forums of an "autotroph" and a "heterotroph" isn't correct.
It's incorrect to say that bacteria that use nitrate reductase to convert nitrate (or nitrite, in some species) to nitrogen gas are autotrophic. These bacteria are still heterotrophs in that they use organic materials as a source of energy.
In fact, one could justifiably say that it's unlikely that we have much of any true bacteria species in our aquaria that are truly autotrophic. Though we do, of course, have autotrophs - those would be photosynthetic cyanobacteria and algae.
In other words, carbon dosing doesn't shift a balance in favor of heterotrophic bacteria, because there isn't a balance to be altered in the first place - carbon dosing will encourage the growth of both nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria.
It's incorrect to say that bacteria that use nitrate reductase to convert nitrate (or nitrite, in some species) to nitrogen gas are autotrophic. These bacteria are still heterotrophs in that they use organic materials as a source of energy.
In fact, one could justifiably say that it's unlikely that we have much of any true bacteria species in our aquaria that are truly autotrophic. Though we do, of course, have autotrophs - those would be photosynthetic cyanobacteria and algae.
In other words, carbon dosing doesn't shift a balance in favor of heterotrophic bacteria, because there isn't a balance to be altered in the first place - carbon dosing will encourage the growth of both nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria.
john_gully
New member
No not cyano and have started dosing every day again as when it went down I went to every other day and realized it crept back up again .
nelsonkearstin
New member
Could we get a pic of algae? Since it's not cyano, it doesn't look slimey right? Cyano can be different colors. Is it green hair algae then?
There are a lot of different algaes. U less u know what u have, I don't think we could make an educated guess as to know to fix it.
I'm anti meds, fixing things with chemicals arnt a long term fix and a lot have other consequences.
Do you have plants in your tank?
There are a lot of different algaes. U less u know what u have, I don't think we could make an educated guess as to know to fix it.
I'm anti meds, fixing things with chemicals arnt a long term fix and a lot have other consequences.
Do you have plants in your tank?
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john_gully
New member
PH is 8.
might be the excess nitrates which have climbed again
dkeller_nc
New member
It's tough to tell from your picture, but it's possible that the algae you've pictured is Bryopsis. You can google the name to get some images - in lower flow areas it looks a bit like fern fronds.
If this is the case, I'm afraid no amount of nutrient reduction will kill it, though some amount of nutrient reduction through carbon dosing and other means such as wet skimming may assist your tank in other ways.
Most of us have found that the only thing that will effectively rid a tank of Bryopsis is the use of Kent Marine TechM. There appears to be a contaminant in the primary magnesium salts that the supplement's made of that is very effective at beating back bryopsis.
If this is the case, I'm afraid no amount of nutrient reduction will kill it, though some amount of nutrient reduction through carbon dosing and other means such as wet skimming may assist your tank in other ways.
Most of us have found that the only thing that will effectively rid a tank of Bryopsis is the use of Kent Marine TechM. There appears to be a contaminant in the primary magnesium salts that the supplement's made of that is very effective at beating back bryopsis.
Why is everybody bothering with sugar dosing when you could easily use microbacter 7 and slowly increase your bacteria colony until the nitrates are taken out of the water column in a more natural way instead dosing unknown chemicals to your tank, a couple of years ago I experimented with vodka on my good reef just to lower my nitrates so I could grow SPS corals, instead I destroyed my whole tank, lesson learn. Just my two cents
CStrickland
New member
I wonder what unknown chemicals brightwell uses to keep those microbacter7 bacteria alive in a bottle.
Also, wouldn't they still be C limited? unless they eat each other...
Also, wouldn't they still be C limited? unless they eat each other...
no I am just trying to help out with my experience, sugar dosing could work but it seems to me that by dosing sugar or vodka we are also creating an environment for algae to flourish, the idea here is to increase the bacteria population in our tanks to ultimately consume nitrates and avoid crashing our tanks
Two methods that I know work;
1. bio-pellets reactor (creates a heaven for bacteria)
2. Bacteria dosing
These two methods will work but like everything else in our hobby it will take time and it has to be done right.
Two methods that I know work;
1. bio-pellets reactor (creates a heaven for bacteria)
2. Bacteria dosing
These two methods will work but like everything else in our hobby it will take time and it has to be done right.
nelsonkearstin
New member
With sugar, you are putting some source of glucose or nutrients in the tank yes. but, with that word nutrients, I believe everyone uses it very lightly because of problems noone wants from those said nutrients, I understand but, high no3 can be a problem, and the fact maintenance is the only way to help, no3 can always be a problem for some.
Nitrates are "nutrients" to me. U get them because you don't have the nitrifying bacteria to keep them in check. You have the algae probs when no3 Is high because they are nutrients for algae.
Sugar is definitely not the answer for routine maintenance, because we don't have much knowledge of what it's actually doing BUT, I did it. It works. Sometimes newbe's need that help or restart if you will in the begining like me. I was doing wc and everything I was supposed to be (just like everyone thinks they're doing fine) however at the begining you don't have the Bioload experience or the tanks just to new to have the nitrifying bacteria to help.
I agree with increasing the nitrifying bacteria! But, that can take some time and your going to continue to go through he¡¡ with algae. And no3 will climb while your looking for some.
Long term, an increase of bacteria is what needs to happen! To help keep your tank where it's supposed to be. Go get some good live rock. I cycled mine myself separate from the dt to make sure I wasn't messing anything up! This way you can also save some money and get good dried rock to seed yourself with bacteria in a bottle or whatever.
Sugar- everyone knows no3 is super super small. That's why it can't be filtered out and wc is the only way to remove. (Idk specific dosing size, this is from my experience) Adding a half tsp of sugar like per 30 gal (I would do .5 tsp a day to slowly drop your no3) it's gunna take like 2 weeks, depending on tank size, to slowly drop no3. (You can cause shock to livestock if drop to fast) In that time you can be cycling rock somewhere and beating both probs at same time... No3 is able to consume glucose or whatever no3 likes in the sugar, thus making them bigger and able to be removed with the skimmer. You have to have a skimmer for this to work!
You will see a slight increase in your skimmers production as its skimming away no3. I knew it was doing this because no3 decreased. Skimmer increased. While no3 was decreasing algae probs were also decreasing. I say decreasing algae but it will not completely solve your prob. Deal with the GHA. get that rock cycled with bact, put it in your dt than get your clean up crew. All the crap algae your probably seeing now, nothing wants to eat it. But later with your no3 stable, you won't have crap algae so much hopefully and what will be there, cleaners should take care of. I would not add cleaners till u get new rock in there! This whole process could take a month.
Recap, look for some rock. I would definitely put in separate bin. If live, put in clean saltwater with power head and heater. Light if you have one. Wouldn't hurt. If you think it's good and full of bact, test it after a week for no3. If low put in your tank.
If dry dead rock, cycle in separate bin like I said but add bacteria to colonize. Your gunna want to cycle dead rock for like 4-6weeks with bacteria. Doing 50 wc after 2 weeks. No3 should show very low when ready.
Sugar- add .5 tsp each day to lower no3 in dt. Continue to test to make sure that amount is doing something and that your not dropping it to fast. Change dose amount need be.
(I would only resort to sugar if your no3 is higher than 30ppm if lower, just up your weekly wc)
Once your dt is low on no3, add rock when ready and get a clean up crew.
Then enjoy your tank! Just make sure to add livestock slowly giving nitrifying bact time to colonize and cover new fish.
Sorry for the book, I get excited
Nitrates are "nutrients" to me. U get them because you don't have the nitrifying bacteria to keep them in check. You have the algae probs when no3 Is high because they are nutrients for algae.
Sugar is definitely not the answer for routine maintenance, because we don't have much knowledge of what it's actually doing BUT, I did it. It works. Sometimes newbe's need that help or restart if you will in the begining like me. I was doing wc and everything I was supposed to be (just like everyone thinks they're doing fine) however at the begining you don't have the Bioload experience or the tanks just to new to have the nitrifying bacteria to help.
I agree with increasing the nitrifying bacteria! But, that can take some time and your going to continue to go through he¡¡ with algae. And no3 will climb while your looking for some.
Long term, an increase of bacteria is what needs to happen! To help keep your tank where it's supposed to be. Go get some good live rock. I cycled mine myself separate from the dt to make sure I wasn't messing anything up! This way you can also save some money and get good dried rock to seed yourself with bacteria in a bottle or whatever.
Sugar- everyone knows no3 is super super small. That's why it can't be filtered out and wc is the only way to remove. (Idk specific dosing size, this is from my experience) Adding a half tsp of sugar like per 30 gal (I would do .5 tsp a day to slowly drop your no3) it's gunna take like 2 weeks, depending on tank size, to slowly drop no3. (You can cause shock to livestock if drop to fast) In that time you can be cycling rock somewhere and beating both probs at same time... No3 is able to consume glucose or whatever no3 likes in the sugar, thus making them bigger and able to be removed with the skimmer. You have to have a skimmer for this to work!
You will see a slight increase in your skimmers production as its skimming away no3. I knew it was doing this because no3 decreased. Skimmer increased. While no3 was decreasing algae probs were also decreasing. I say decreasing algae but it will not completely solve your prob. Deal with the GHA. get that rock cycled with bact, put it in your dt than get your clean up crew. All the crap algae your probably seeing now, nothing wants to eat it. But later with your no3 stable, you won't have crap algae so much hopefully and what will be there, cleaners should take care of. I would not add cleaners till u get new rock in there! This whole process could take a month.
Recap, look for some rock. I would definitely put in separate bin. If live, put in clean saltwater with power head and heater. Light if you have one. Wouldn't hurt. If you think it's good and full of bact, test it after a week for no3. If low put in your tank.
If dry dead rock, cycle in separate bin like I said but add bacteria to colonize. Your gunna want to cycle dead rock for like 4-6weeks with bacteria. Doing 50 wc after 2 weeks. No3 should show very low when ready.
Sugar- add .5 tsp each day to lower no3 in dt. Continue to test to make sure that amount is doing something and that your not dropping it to fast. Change dose amount need be.
(I would only resort to sugar if your no3 is higher than 30ppm if lower, just up your weekly wc)
Once your dt is low on no3, add rock when ready and get a clean up crew.
Then enjoy your tank! Just make sure to add livestock slowly giving nitrifying bact time to colonize and cover new fish.
Sorry for the book, I get excited
nelsonkearstin
New member
Then you may find phosphate is your prob. But, you gotta move slowly hitting 1 prob at a time so you understand what's going on
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Yes, they are nutrients along with nitrite, ammonia/ammonium, and phosphate.
I think you mean de-nitrifying bacteria. The nitrifying bacteria is what converts ammonia to nitrate.
Take a look at what algae consumes: NO3
Dosing just causes more bacteria to grow. Yes it could be skimmed out, but it can also feed your corals. So having a skimmer is not really mandatory for carbon dosing.
Well, actually a skimmer does not remove any nitrate (or nitrite, ammonia, or phosphate). If you put a skimmer on a bucket of fresh saltwater and poured these nutrients in, the skimmer would not do anything. Instead, skimmers remove food particles. So what is happening is that the carbon dosing is growing food particles (bacteria), which can be used to feed your corals, or can be skimmed out.
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Yes, they are nutrients along with nitrite, ammonia/ammonium, and phosphate.
I think you mean de-nitrifying bacteria. The nitrifying bacteria is what converts ammonia to nitrate.
Take a look at what algae consumes: NO3
Dosing just causes more bacteria to grow. Yes it could be skimmed out, but it can also feed your corals. So having a skimmer is not really mandatory for carbon dosing.
Well, actually a skimmer does not remove any nitrate (or nitrite, ammonia, or phosphate). If you put a skimmer on a bucket of fresh saltwater and poured these nutrients in, the skimmer would not do anything. Instead, skimmers remove food (protein) particles. So what is happening is that the carbon dosing is growing food particles (bacteria), which can be used to feed your corals, or can be skimmed out.
nelsonkearstin
New member
Yes de-nitrifying bacteria.
Yes algae and plants can consume no3 but, fish can consume plants and algae. They can wrip them up and have pieces get stuck in hardware. Put it sump or fuge for sure.
I would have a skimmer on there. How else would u filter it out? I guess ull get it with water change but probably not all, just skim it out and the next day lvl will be down. If not, no3 probably get stuck in foam somewhere down the line thus not getting removed asap like im saying it does. Idk
Yea corals could eat some of the sugar based bact but, saying they're eating them is like saying they arnt be removed per skim.
The whole point of sugar is to remove no3. Not make sure your corals are eating. Your right there are other Carbon dosing regimens that probably don't need skimmers but, this makes sense.
Skimmers don't remove nitrate ite am or phosphate. I no. If they did we would all have perfect water. That is the point of the sugar dosing. The nitrate consumes the sugar (we are "dosing") thus making the nitrate large enough to be removed with skimmer! You can't just say food and poop Is being pulled through skimmer. We have no control over that. It pulls a lot of good along with bad. I wouldn't keep a skimmer on 24/7 unless lots of fish and high feedings. Corals do need alot of what's in your water so skimming can hurt a lil. You just have to supplement elements back if you lose them.
I've done this. Everything makes sense to me.
What I don't really know is, if corals will eat it. And if that makes a difference to the no3 lvl just like removing with skimmer. I no some reefers keep higher no3. That's owners option.
As far as I no, this person is trying to remove no3 like I was.
This works.
Yes algae and plants can consume no3 but, fish can consume plants and algae. They can wrip them up and have pieces get stuck in hardware. Put it sump or fuge for sure.
I would have a skimmer on there. How else would u filter it out? I guess ull get it with water change but probably not all, just skim it out and the next day lvl will be down. If not, no3 probably get stuck in foam somewhere down the line thus not getting removed asap like im saying it does. Idk
Yea corals could eat some of the sugar based bact but, saying they're eating them is like saying they arnt be removed per skim.
The whole point of sugar is to remove no3. Not make sure your corals are eating. Your right there are other Carbon dosing regimens that probably don't need skimmers but, this makes sense.
Skimmers don't remove nitrate ite am or phosphate. I no. If they did we would all have perfect water. That is the point of the sugar dosing. The nitrate consumes the sugar (we are "dosing") thus making the nitrate large enough to be removed with skimmer! You can't just say food and poop Is being pulled through skimmer. We have no control over that. It pulls a lot of good along with bad. I wouldn't keep a skimmer on 24/7 unless lots of fish and high feedings. Corals do need alot of what's in your water so skimming can hurt a lil. You just have to supplement elements back if you lose them.
I've done this. Everything makes sense to me.
What I don't really know is, if corals will eat it. And if that makes a difference to the no3 lvl just like removing with skimmer. I no some reefers keep higher no3. That's owners option.
As far as I no, this person is trying to remove no3 like I was.
This works.
CStrickland
New member
Well, actually of course a skimmer removes nutrients http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature
nelsonkearstin
New member
And I have seen it may be the bact u get from the sugar that eats the no3 then is removed. I stated the no3 eats the sugar and expands. Not 100% but something is taking hold of no3 making it bigger and easier to skim...
SuperSaltwater
New member
refugium with chaeto, no need for sugar. imo
nelsonkearstin
New member
Agreed. It's just possible
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Well, what actually is happening is that bacteria are *eating* the nitrate, and then the bacteria multiply. The bacteria are then protein, and this protein can feed corals or be skimmed out.
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